College Conductors

Yeah, it's— I mean, it's— it's going in different places and different directions, all all uh simultaneously, I think. You know, people experience things uh very personally and very differently. Um, and you know, the— the feedback I'm getting from my students is that, you know, it's— it's very up and down. Some days they do great, other days, it's just like, wow, this is really, really a struggle. At— at KU, at the University of Kansas where I'm the Director of Orchestral Activities, we've actually been very, very fortunate um in that our ensembles have been able to meet in person uh this— this past semester, and we're planning on doing the same thing for the forthcoming semester. So, my orchestra has been capped at a maximum of 45 uh players, which is obviously smaller than our typical symphony orchestra, but nonetheless, is a very viable ensemble. So, uh, we're able to do two concerts uh, and we have obviously a socially distanced um set up and copious quantities of hand sanitizer and we're all masked, and the players— the wind and brass have particular uh playing masks, you know, with special slits for the instruments and they've got bell covers to limit the aerosol emissions. But yeah, with— with an ensemble of 45, we've managed to do a Mendelssohn 5 and a Beethoven symphony cycle, uh, chamber sorts of works along that um, you know, along those lines. So, um, and the feedback from the students uh, you know, a lot of whom have spent, you know, so many hours behind Zoom, was just that orchestra was uh, you know, for a lot of them, their only in-person experience, their only in-person class. And in many ways, it— it really um, you know, kind of gave them that whole social interaction that, you know, is is associated with college that, you know, it just is kind of missing, obviously, when you meet, particularly as a freshman, for example, or coming in as a new Master's or doctoral student to a different institution. You haven't got that interaction with people where you're kind of, you know, standing in the corridor um, before class. I guess you've got that time standing in the corridor 6 feet apart when the the the the, you know, air uh, cycles need to be replenished in the the rooms because we have a 30 minutes on, 20 minutes off uh, rehearsal limitation as advised by the Colorado study. But yeah, that's— that's pretty much where— where we are and what we've been able to do so far.

Sure. Um, as we were talking about, you know, just prior to getting online, um, you know, the orchestras, we we touch every nook and cranny of a school of music. Uh, we collaborate with the choral programs, we work with the vocal faculty, perhaps opera. Um, you know, we we encounter work with strings, winds, brass, and percussion— woodwinds, brass, and percussion. And so, I think an orchestra is an excellent barometer uh, for for understanding the health of the institution. And like Carolyn, we were very fortunate, we were able to rehearse in person. Uh, the university did a fantastic job um, acquiring spaces for us that were large enough for us to put 30— we we were capped at 31 people in our space. Um, and we had to rotate ensembles, and like Carolyn, we were doing 30 minutes on, 20 minutes off, 30 minutes on. Um, but because we were in a disparate building, it created challenges for us that, you know, transport of instruments, you know, making sure that people were able to get from classes to classes on time. Uh, you know, making sure that the— the staff in the new building, you know, were not faced with challenges that were insurmountable. But the students feel all of that. You know, they they they both feel uh, the pressure of it and the weight of it, but they also feel the respect and honor that come from that kind of open-door policy in our institution. And so, I think it really created a sense of investment and value for the students. Um, you know, I— I'm fortunate, you know, in our school of music, you know, we have 300-ish majors, and so we're— we are a family. I mean, it is— it is an environment in which we build uh upon relationship, um, understanding, and collaborative artistry that is, you know, it's infused in everything that we do. And we have music industry students, music business students, you know, th— you know, therapy students coming online. So, yeah, I— I I think that when we then had to go online, which we— we left school on November the 6th, I think it was. Mhm. Um, just out of the caution of the Upstate New York COVID scenario, um, there was an immediate emotional impact on the students. Um, meeting with them, you know, still regularly online in the classes that I teach, the conducting class, and I teach a music history and literature course. This semester was um Mahler and Strauss Intertwined was the— the class that I taught. And— and, but, you know, the— the zeitgeist and the angst that those kinds of things bring out in the students because it's such raw emotional content. Uh, we were— we were rehearsing and then we would want to recording uh, the finale of the Bach B minor Mass. The Dona Nobis Pacem portion of that for a performance uh, for Hendricks Chapel, Holidays at Hendricks. And— and the emotional content of it is overwhelming. Um, but— but, again, you can— you can feel it bisect from in-person collaboration versus the online collaborative feeling. And— and so, you know, the— the— the heavy-weight work that we then do online is overwhelming because not only do you have to, through digital information, connect with them emotionally, but you have to then care for them. You know, and and— and, it— it is— it is a true challenge.

Yeah, thanks, Michael, uh, for your kind words. Right, it is a— a very cold place, it's— Antarctica, but warm hearts. Uh, and I've really felt so welcome the 5 years that I've lived here now. And, of course, as you said, Michael, having you here was a great highlight of our— Thank you. of our— our year. 2017, I think it was, right? And I have the poster sitting right up here, see it, a miniature Frankenstein there.

That's right. But, n- no, you're— I can only echo, right, what— what Carolyn and what James said. Um, it's been— it's certainly been a— a difficult year, a challenging year, but also a year uh of, you know, silver— silver linings and sort of really having to be creative, and I think this need to be creative has put out some really wonderful products in the end. And products as well as processes, right, to— to get to that point. Um, we're at a school where almost two-thirds of the entire student population participates in some form of fashion in music, so it's a very, very lively musical culture here. And with four choirs and— and two full orchestras, three full bands, uh, very active place, and it was clear for us that once the Colorado studies that Carolyn mentioned came out, uh, that we have to do our best, you know, to, of course, be as safe as possible, but that we'd have to uh be making music. And so, we've been very fortunate that all our choirs, all our ensembles, have been working, uh, all adhering to these strict protocols. Um—

That's right, yeah, right, all the— the— the studies and protocols that— that Caroline had mentioned earlier. Uh, similar to what James said, we, too, are of a— a family, right, in this music department. And community is number one, right? That sits at the core of everything we do is that out of this sense of community and supporting each other, true art can— can then develop, right? And that has been more difficult at first to build this year with an— with a new group, when you can't actually read a whole lot of your facial expression. And we usually do, you know, devotionals before concerts, we do, um, entire weekends where we spend social time together as well as rehearsal time together, and all of that, I couldn't really do with my students. Um, but we've all just really made sure that we focused on understanding how lucky uh we are to be together in the first place to make music, again um, you know, exercising gratitude uh in that.

Uh, thanks, uh, for inviting me, first of all. Uh, yes, so, uh, when we met uh at Connecticut College, that was the first semester when the, uh, the pandemic— pandemic outbreak was, right? Uh, that was in mid of March uh, where we basically shut down, so we didn't have like the experience as we all gained together throughout last summer, like with, uh, how we can rehearse online. So, at that time, um, we just had, uh, online, uh, conversations and talks with, uh, this orchestra that you met at Connecticut College. So, that first semester because I want to build a bridge, when you mentioned about three semesters now with living COVID. And then the second semester, so, in the meantime, in the summer, I moved down to Virginia, as you mentioned, uh, to Blacksburg, and it's now basically halfway through because I studied together with Kevin in Memphis. And now from Connecticut, it's halfway through Tennessee, so now I'm in— in, uh, Blacksburg, in Virginia. Uh, and that was the first semester. So, we did all these studies over the summer, like how we can have the ensembles uh online. So, we did a lot of research, uh, up to 20 musicians at the same time without delay, and we really prepared for that. But then, as um all of you mentioned, I also got very lucky. So, I'm the Director of Orchestral Activities here, and we, uh, had strings in person. So, no winds and no brass. They were rehearsing out— uh, outdoors uh until November, uh, and I had strings, so I was very lucky with that. Now, the third semester, looking ahead, uh, which starts next week, uh, we have been able to get access to a huge uh commonwealth ballroom. So, now I can have, actually, full orchestra up to 49. So, you see, um each semester is going forward and I see really see a a light at the end of the tunnel, um—

Uh, yeah. Well, thank you, Michael, for having me, and uh, I I just would echo the the same comments that my colleagues here have made. Um, we have a challenge, i- it's been an interesting situation for me, personally, because I was on sabbatical in the fall of 2019, and then when I came back in the spring of 2020, we had about 4 weeks of rehearsal when everything shut down. And we were about a week away from a performance of, uh, Respighi's Pines of Rome, 95 in the orchestra, and everything just, you know, it— the halt came so quickly um, that it just— we had, literally, just a few days to— to try and um pull music together and things like that. And then um, you know, I think all of us in the school of music just scrambled to figure out, what does that mean for the balance of that spring semester?

And um, over the summer, we— we went through all the studies as well, and with— I made the determination in the uh, for the fall of 2020, not to meet in person. I just felt like there were too many unknowns, and it was better for us to err on the side of caution. Um, some of my— my band colleagues, they tried to create some experience, but they were limited to eight people, and they had to be at least 20 feet distance. Hm. And uh— and that created all sorts of challenges as well. What the orchestra program did, uh, for the fall, was, uh, focused instead on an optional repertoire, um, survey of sorts. And we did a diversity and inclusion repertoire, which was, uh, coming off of all the, uh, social unrest and those really important protests that took place over the summer.

Well, that was really interesting, because the— the format, which I think, in some ways, some aspect of it is here to stay, this idea of the digital meeting and Zoom conferencing, actually led to some really dynamic conversations with the students about the repertoire and a way to get to know them a little bit more on a personal level than can take place in a structured rehearsal of 90 people.

And so, I think that that— that was one of the positive things that came out of it. But, you know, there's no substitution for making music in person. Um, our— our chamber music program in the fall actually thrived in— in working together with, you know, in— in smaller chamber groups and quartets and quintets, things like that, um, helped. But, you know, in the orchestra world, we have this canon of 400 years of phenomenal music and new music coming uh every day, and then this diversity and inclusion awareness of repertoire that has been on the fringe for far too long.

Mhm.

Yeah.

I think that the, uh, myopic vision that we have currently on diversity and inclusion is going to create unbelievable backlash. You know, there are— there are members in my own community who are asked to be on certain search committees because they are Latino or African-American, black, and, you know, BIPOC, and— and and they feel it. They feel the weight of it, they feel the— it's not an insult, but they feel the isolation of being in that experience, you know? And— and so many composers, I think, are now being, you know, pointed out as the unique herald of the black, of the Latino, of the female, of the— and— and it— and it is, I think it is incredibly challenging. And, uh, a- a- and the doors need to be thrown wide open, and those commissions should have been left wide open. You know, and it— it takes someone of— of— of— of real integrity and authority, someone like— like, um, Julie Giroux, you know? She gets a commission and then she writes whatever the hell she wants, right? I mean, it— it's just— yeah, it's just who sh— it's who she is, and and— and the way it should be, I think.

Um, yes, um, I think, I mean, I think it's a— it— it is an issue that, you know, we as a, um, an institution, we as conductors, we as composers, we as, uh, you know, people involved in the classical music world, are grappling with, are struggling with, and are figuring it out, you know, uh, as we go along, basically. And there are obviously a number of initiatives going on, uh, and there's certainly a heightened degree of awareness with regard to inclusivity, um, and— and representation, which I think is a first step and is— is super, super positive. Um, but— but yeah, and I guess I— I sort of, uh, maybe perhaps bring a perspective as a, you know, female conductor, in what's obviously still a very, very male-dominated sort of uh, profession. Yeah, I think that, that, uh, we sort of need to move away from, "Oh, we're programming a women, uh," you know, "a work by a woman composer," to just kind of, "We're programming this piece because it's a good piece of music," you know? We're programming, you know, um, y- you know. And— and we're not— we're not there yet, and I think, um, you know, we are working towards getting there. And I— I hope very much that, first of all, these, you know, commissioning initiatives, um, such as Project 19 that you just mentioned, Michael, um, first of all, they're going to result in more repertoire, which in itself is positive, um, and, you know, that's going to expand the canon, and that's going to give us as conductors more of an opportunity to— to program these works and, you know, to have them sort of, you know, at our fingertips, as it were, when we're looking to— to, you know, put programs together. With respect to, you know, um, it potentially being offensive, um, I— I don't know, I guess I um, I totally understand where you're— your— your coming from, um, but as a composer, I'm sure you're— you— you recognize um, you know, when somebody wants you to— to write a 3 to 5-minute piece, it's certainly much cheaper for the commissioning organization than than when they want you to write a 30-minute piece, or a— an hour and 30-minute piece. So, I— I don't know whether it's, you know, financially driven, I don't know whether it's perhaps a pragmatic thing, in that, you know, the— the New York Philharmonic uh, likely recognizes that audiences tend to be quite conservative, and, you know, they're uh, perhaps going to be open to hearing a— a fan-fare, a— a work by Jennifer Higdon, uh, before they're going to be open to hearing a symphony. So, perhaps, you know, we might not— not necessarily know, but there may be a— a longer term strategic goal in mind whereby this— this project, for example, could, um, initiate audiences, for want of a better word, uh, and— and show them composers that they might not necessarily be familiar with, and then perhaps a few years down the track, you know, uh, it will be possible to— to move on to, you know, longer— longer works, larger scale sorts of works.

I totally see value in this, because, um, Kevin and I, we just finished, um, Conducting Academy, uh, for the second time, and that's a big, um, component about diversity and inclusion. Um, and that certainly has been a benefit for us in the COVID time to really focus and thinking about how to be creative, what to program. And this decision, uh, with New York, I think that's going into the right direction because we have been like seeing numbers which have been quite shocking, especially from major orchestras. Not only the United States, who like barely had any underrepresented composers over their history. And there are like a little bit lo— smaller orchestras, but have been like 70% of underrepresented composers, of female composers. I think that's really something which needs to— to improve and that's a step I think into the right direction. Um, I mean, talking about Chicago Symphony, uh, uh, Philadelphia, they're just very conservative, as you know.

Yeah, no, I— I would just say that, you know, academic freedom comes— wh— which is a great luxury, comes with a huge responsibility. And, um, we take a real pedagogical approach to the programming here. And there— we have four orchestras that do a variety of different styles and genres of music. Right. And so, that's— that's also a luxury. Um, but I think my— my main focus as the Director of Orchestral Activities is to make sure that the students are exposed to masterworks, as well as new works. Uh, this idea of diversity inclusion is an important component of that. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I had a conversation once with Leon Botstein, who said that great programming pairs works that reveal new things about the pieces, right? And so, if we're going to do a— a warhorse like Beethoven 5, something like the Martinů, the, uh, Memorial to Lidice, which uses, uh, a quotation of the, uh— Right. —the opening theme of— of the Beethoven, in a very different way, allows for conversations beyond the music, right? And so, I think that deepens the experience for our students, that deepens the experience for the audience as well.

I think just like Jim just said, there's such a wealth of amazing music out there, amazing repertoire that we don't know, simply all for the wrong reasons, right? Simply because of someone's uh gender or sexual orientation or color of of their skin. Uh, I want to hop back just briefly and say that I don't really approach programming for my college students differently in terms of diverse programming as I would for my my regional professional orchestra in Wisconsin. Uh, I try—or I—I've made it a rule for myself, I guess, 4 years ago that on every single concert, there's a living composer on there, and there's a- a composer who's from an historically underrepresented background. Not to check boxes, but to—for myself—to explore more great music. And I only program music that I absolutely love, right? Something that sends me, something that speaks to me, and there's so much out there. Uh, to get back to the academia, uh, sit—

I think that being in academia is such a privilege, right? We—we get to be really living this idea of being a student for life and learning alongside with our students. And that has been just so eye-opening for me. My students have marched on 2 years ago and have completely reformed our concert dress, you know, switching over to a non-binary concert dress and spearheaded that movement. Now every other ensemble on campus has followed suit, and they hold me accountable, too, in terms of programming, right? The more we explore in those terms together, the more they hold me accountable too, to—to those ideas, and I love that.

I just want to say at some point, maybe we could bring this group back together in the future to talk about the publishing companies. Because at—at— in this topic of conversation that we're in currently, we in the academy face the same challenges that anyone would when it comes to actually acquiring and—and—and receiving these works, uh, you know, having them be available to us, and it is a challenge. There's no doubt about it. Um, you know, I wanted to do the William Grant Still finale from the Symphony No. 3 with the All-Eastern NAfME Orchestra, and we—we can't get it. We can't get it from anywhere. Not from the William Grant Still Foundation, nor from from its publishing company. So, you know, so now we're doing Hindemith March instead, you know, and—and it's—it's wonderful music, but those are—those are not the kinds of challenges that we should be having at this point, and so—

Yeah, I mean, I—I have a long uh wish list of works I'd love to do. Um, I've not yet had the opportunity to do Copland 3. I mean, it's obviously a—a hugely challenging work, particularly for an academic orchestra. Um, but I've not given up on that possibility yet. So, it's um—it's definitely there, um, you know, on the—on the to-do list when we can find a—an appropriate uh opportunity. Um, I mean, the—the Barber Piano Concerto I've sort of uh relatively recently discovered, and um, you know, again, it's—it's sort of on the—on the—on the to-do list, I think. Uh, another work um that I've—I've come across more recently is uh, and more recent composer—I don't know whether this is exactly fitting into your parameters—but John Corigliano's Voyage for string orchestra.

Which absolutely is accessible for a young orchestra, and particularly people doing um, uh, string orchestra works in this COVID time, I can absolutely recommend that one, um.

Almost—almost an impossible question, there are so many pieces. Uh, if we're sticking— Two pieces, or maybe three, now that Carolyn's gone to three. American, um, uh, yeah, Copland 3 is is great. I actually did Copland 3 on my—my doctoral recital at Eastman. Uh, I don't know if I would pick it up again with uh, uh, with a university group. It is—it is wickedly difficult and each movement gets progressively harder. Um, but what a—what a masterpiece. Um, so, I guess if I were to pick a couple, David Diamond certainly would be at the top. His Eighth Symphony has always been a favorite of mine. Um, um, the Roy Harris Third Symphony also. Uh, you know, in terms of—of accessing the music, we're very fortunate, and we have a substantial amount of resources for rental, and usually, another conversation, I think, having to do with the publishers is this cost issue, right? And, um, because it's prohibitively expensive, but we're fortunate in that regard.

Oh, gosh, so many things. Um, you know, something that we did a few years ago that I would love to do again uh because it's so—you know, James talked about the zeitgeist earlier—uh, Howard Hanson's Song of Democracy for choir and orchestra. Wow. Talk in a moment about—about a piece, right, that—that fits into the time we're living in right now. Um, but—but other than that, uh, you know, I have a great fascination, maybe obsession, uh for the music of Dominik Argento. Uh, it came from Wonderful. dissertation uh, was—was on a piece by his and I had the chance to meet him still at the very end of his life for the last Yeah. 3 years and uh, we had many gin and tonics together at his at his beautiful home in Min- Minneapolis. Um, being a vocalist myself, uh, have an affinity for—for works that combine, right, voice and the orchestra, so all the many o- operas that he wrote, Voyage of Edgar Allan Poe, or know, the— his—his version of the Casanova, um—

Well, uh, one of my um heroes as an undergraduate student was a a pianist-composer by the name of Robert Helps. Um, he was a student of Mary Whitehead's in New York City and he taught at the University of South Florida in Tampa. And he wrote two symphonies, Symphony 1 and 2, and the Symphony No. 2 exists, but it's only in manuscript and there are no parts, so that it has to be, you know, Wow. put into digital format and then parts extracted. So, that's a project we're working on. Um, the, um— the three Bernstein symphonies, 1, 2, and 3 are a project that I would like to face down before it gets too late in my life. Um, I think that, you know, the Jeremiah and the Age of Anxiety carry with them such challenges uh, o- of the vocabulary of the 20th century, but also looking forward to the 21st century, and I—I I think that would be something remarkable. Um, Hansen speaks deeply to me, and and is a person that I find uh, you know, the— the narrative is natural to my own vocabulary, so the Second Symphony is is—is truly a a—a watershed work for me in—in that particular way. Um, and then we have on our books to do the David Diamond Rounds for strings, in the near future, and so it's such great music. Those are—those are the kinds of pieces that, you know, in the academy, I think the students really, they gravitate to the visceral nature of every one of those works and of the—

Also for me, I mean, it's such a huge list, and in general, I— I want to uh just enlarge um the American composer, my repertoire list, because it's not— not enough at this point. So, uh, I just received two days ago a huge package from William Grant Still's daughter, um, Florence Price's dances in the cabin brakes. Love these funny, uh, uh, miniatures, which I'm planning, so, that wish came true 2 days ago. Ah. And over that, I will then program and um, continuing into William Grant Still's, probably the First Symphony, the Afro-American Symphony, which I would really love to have to do with my students. Then for sure, uh, something by Hanson, maybe Second Symphony, or continuing um with Copland um, yeah. And, don't not to—not forget, uh, Michael Shapiro at once, if you—

I'm sorry, Matthias, who is that? Who are you talking about?

The book— your bookbinder suit, remember the bookbinder suit that we had? So, yeah.

Oh, I got to go first. Um, I— I don't know if that's answerable, frankly, in the present. I— I— I think great works of art need the crucible of time to uh be performed, to be experienced, um, because, of course, it's very subjective. It's very subjective.

Yeah.

Right. No, I just think that there are too many facets that are involved in that decision, right? It's got to speak to you personally. You know, we were talking a little bit, and I won't go too long, but we're talking a little bit about programming, and, um, I— I wrote my dissertation on concert programming, and there's no way to define what is a great program. It's too subjective. But what we can agree upon are certain criteria that are valid criteria for putting works together. And so, um, maybe it—

I'm trying to bring it back in here, but I think the idea of appreciating a singular work has to be the culmination of all these different criteria, and it's different for every single person.

Yeah.

Meyerbeer, right. Meyerbeer.

Gosh, that—

—a tough question, as Jim said. I mean, that's, I think, it ha— it is related to the way we grew up in our family, that's to a certain point, even before our professional lives begin. That we— there are also some traditions we are kind of growing up, I think, uh, and then we go to these highlights, right, and we get in touch with all these um core stone, uh, not only composers, but then pieces, and then we grew up— grow up with them, and we build a relationship with them. Right. Uh, that's something I kind of would point out that's— I have a just a deeper connection and— or closer to uh a Verdi opera than a Meyerbeer because I just don't know them. Uh, and I didn't invest the way I— I might should have, and it touches me, and when this— this piece touches me, then it's always here and it will remain here.

Uh, you are, you're asking so— so many really big and very, very challenging questions. I'm glad you mentioned uh Bernstein and Mahler because I think, you know, to answer your question in— in terms of, you know, um, works and the canon, and how they sort of, you know, retain their— their popularity, I do think, uh, very often composers and uh, and/or works need a champion. Need somebody, um, you know, who is in a position to stand up and say, "I think this is a wonderful work of art. Listen to it," you know? And, I mean, obviously, Leonard Bernstein being music director of the New York Philharmonic, that's a very prominent platform. Had Leonard Bernstein been, uh, music director of uh, the St. Joseph Symphony in, uh, Missouri— um, you know, where I happened to be a finalist for the music director position— um, I don't know— (laughs) I don't know, you know, um, and— and, uh, you know, if I were to get that position or any other, you know, regional music directorship, I don't know that I would have similar sway. So, I do think that there— there is, you know, that that sort of public platform and that somebody who is in a position to to sort of stand up and and sort of, you know, have a— have a voice. Um, I think also something, uh, you know, the intrinsic value of the music in and of itself is um, uh, is is is part of that, and of course, we can argue about, you know, who assesses that and what does really good mean, because now we're—

That's right, yeah, mhm.

You know, I think relevance um, and how how a composer can express through their music, the struggles that they're going through, either them very personally or their society at a certain time. And as we know, history repeats, right? We go through similar struggles um, as we go through through our lives and and and centuries and so on. And how— how genuinely, how honest, uh, a co— composer, I think can really express—

In the Mahler and Strauss class that I taught just this last semester, uh, we came to a class consciousness at the very end. Uh, so many of the class came knowing Strauss's music well, you know, the tone poems in particular, and not much of the Mahler symphonies, nor any of the choral works. And so, at the end of it, when we— when we put our collective together, we came up with this term, this was my class's realization, which was: the integrity of the composer's narrative must be compelling and empowered by the craft. And almost all of them came to the realization that— that Mahler was compelled by the inner narrative of his entire existence, everything from his youngest age to his last days. Whereas Strauss was craft-driven and found a way of couching his narrative inside the craft. And— and the— the— the whole class flipped over on this experience with the realization of the validity and the integrity and the honesty of the composer versus the craft and the delivery. Now, if the delivery is not well-crafted, we won't return to it. I don't believe as composers and conductors, you know, we— we, we take craft lightly. Um, if it is not done well, we won't return to it, or we won't even address it. But, I think— I think in— in this moment, it— it is when the— the craft empowers the narrative and the honesty and the integrity, and it makes all the difference.