David Leibowitz

Hey, Michael. How are you doing?

Likewise.

The fashionable Upper West Side. Less fashionable than the Upper East Side, but that's good.

Yeah.

Well, we started giving concerts, uh— we started giving full seasons of concerts 20 years ago, in February of— of 2000, actually. So, uh, um, so it's 20 years ago, 21. Uh, before that, though, it was a reading orchestra that met once or twice a month, and, uh, you know, people would get together, and we— we would read stuff. And then, after a while, we decided we wanted to perform, and then the— the fully performing New York Repertory Orchestra started in February of 2000.

Right. We're at the Good Shepherd Church, which is that little church right behind Juilliard, um, that, uh— Yeah, we were there for about 10 years. We outgrew the space. The orchestra got bigger, the audiences got bigger. Uh, by the time we left there, we had people in the audience actually sitting around and on the floor—well, always on the floor, but then on the floor around the orchestra players. Like, the violin— the violin section had people sitting like right below them. (Shapiro laughs) So, we moved. We found the, uh, the, uh, Church of St. Mary in Times Square, which is bigger, and friendlier, and nicer. And we moved there, and we've been there for 10 years, so that's—

It is. It's enormous. It's, um—

Yeah.

Well, um, since the 20 years that we've been performing, you know, concerts—not just reading—we've never repeated anything. So, we've— everything we've played, we've played for the first time for us. So, in a way, that's the repertory part of it. We— we go through repertory, um, and I think that's one of the draws for us, for the players. You know, it's an all-volunteer orchestra. Many of our players are professionals. But I think the draw that brings in such good players—one of the draws—is that we do things that they've never played before, or may have played once in their life, or know of and have never played, but have heard.So, um, I think that's part of it, and that's where the repertory comes in. I have to be honest, we have repeated one piece, uh, and that was the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante. Um, but that was unavoidable because the, uh, concertmaster and the principal viola from the New York Philharmonic asked us if we would play it— if they could play it with us. So—

Yeah, they played it— they played it with the Philharmonic, um, Right. and it's very interesting. The program that we did was that and either Shostakovich 8 or 10. And then the program they played with the New York Philharmonic was that and either Shostakovich 8 or 10, but the other one. (Shapiro laughs)

Well, I have actually on the monitor behind you, I have the list of everything we've played. So, in case you need to, in case you quiz me, I will, uh, I will know that. But, um, but yeah, that's— that's that's— that's the draw for us. I like doing that. Um, you know, certainly we have played all the big— the big romantic pieces. We've done all the Beethoven symphonies and Schuman and— and, um, a lot of Mozart and— and so on. Um, but I think that in many ways, the— the Golden Age of orchestral repertoire is the 20th century, because, um, there's so much— there's so much great stuff, you know, sort of a flowering. And the use of the orchestra, the colors that were available in the 20th century that were just coming about in the— in the 19th century, um, are really interesting to me. So, you know, we've done a lot of Sibelius— we've done all the Sibelius symphonies, or we would have if COVID had not, uh, hit us. We were going to do the last one in the cycle this year, um, number seven. And we've done most— we've done all the Nielsen symphonies except one, and we've done a lot of Shostakovich and Prokofiev, a lot of the Prokofiev symphonies, and Martinů, and a lot of American music. Um, you know, Barber and David Diamond and, uh, Dello Joio and William Schuman and Copland, which, uh— which really appeals to me. And you. Uh, but you're not mid-20th century. You're a young guy.

But you didn't flourish, as they say in the, uh, in the encyclopedias—

You're only flourish— you're flourishing now. Um.

And, uh, so, that's what, um, you know, we do cover standard repertoire, but we don't focus on it to the, uh, exclusion of everything else. And— and there are other organizations in the city, other orchestras, that do that. So, our players might play somewhere, uh, with another group, and they get to play a program that's all Schubert or all, you know, Mendelssohn, Schubert, uh, and— and we've done all those composers, too. We've done a lot of their music, but we don't— it's— it's less, um, you know, we do less of it over the period of time. And, eventually, we get to everything, but, uh—

Yeah.

Right.

One of the things I was hoping for in the Beethoven year was a, uh— a moratorium on the music of Beethoven, so that, uh, we could appreciate it with fresh ears. And I guess I, uh— I hoped and prayed too well, because the, uh, this year, sort of, uh, everything went away, not just Beethoven.

Oh, I see, yeah. (Leibowitz laughs)

Yeah. And this podcast is a— this podcast is a testament to all the— all the conductors that you know.

Oh, good. I think I know, probably.

Yeah.

Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Oh, right. You know we've done a lot of Bruckner also.

I did.

I think— I think Martinů, if we can veer away from you complimenting me, is— Martinů is as great a symphonist, as a composer in general, as any of the bigger names like Shostakovich or Prokofiev. Right. I think he stands up there right alongside them, uh, e-e- equal— equal weight, equal importance, equal interest, and his music is unique. You hear his music— I had this exper— I mean, the way I pick music, this is kind of how it happens.

I listen to— I listen to something, I keep lists. I keep lists, these huge lists, pages and pages of things that I'm interested in hearing, that I hear about, maybe on the radio or a friend mentions or, you know, my— my colleague suggests, I— I put it down. And then, I listen to them. And if it grabs me like right away, then that's a great sign. And that— that happens in Martinů every time I listen to any of his music. And we've done— we've done most of his concertos also, which are fantastic. Um, and the, uh— and the symphonies, they just get you. The— the— I think the only other piece that had that sort of, it grabbed you in such a way that you— I thought, "I've never heard this music ever in my life," was the, uh, is the Stravinsky Violin Concerto.

The opening of that piece is something— like in a measure, you're like, "Ah, I've never heard this and this is fantastic. How is this— how is this going to continue?" And it, of course, it does. And the same with Martinů. So, let me, uh, I— I agree with you— with you, uh, agreeing with me about Martinů. (Leibowitz laughs)

I think that's universal. Everyone likes that. (Leibowitz laughs)

Yeah, yeah.

Talk about music, yeah.

That's right. That's right.

Of course, and, you know, the orchestra that I conducted for over 10 years out on Long Island, I had no control over the programming, and it was a very standard repertoire. I don't think there was anything, I don't think they rented a piece of music in their lives. (Shapiro laughs)

Yeah.

But I— I'm— I'm— I think I'm very lucky. I'm very fortunate. I'm very fortunate that my board of directors allows me to— to do that on my own. I think that the— that's become sort of the signature of the orchestra that way, in addition to the excellent playing, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I— I hate thematic programming as a— as a marketing tool, in a way.

Well, um, because the thematic programming, okay, I don't hate thematic programming, but the theme has to be musical. The theme has to be something that, um, goes through the program, through the music of the program, and unites it in a way that is enlightening to the audience, even if they don't know that. So when I think of bad programmatic, uh— sorry, when I think of bad thematic programming, if I see another program that's called "Fire and Ice," (Shapiro chuckles) or "A Tour through Old Europe," or—which is, you know, every concert, almost—or or something that— that a theme that's been cooked up by a marketing department that then tries to force music into, that's not interesting to me. Thematic program— thematic programming—that's just a hard thing to say, we should call it something else. Um, is something that links pieces together. So when I am creating a program, the feeling of— of pieces going together is very, uh, instinctual, but there's— it can be something as simple as one piece deals with, uh, quintuple meter and another piece deals with quintuple meter. They're not related compositionally, but there's a— there's a— there's a link. And that link oftentimes is only, um, known to me. It makes sense to me. And I— I'm happy to explain it to anyone if they're interested. I just don't think audiences are interested in that. I think they're interested in coming to a concert where they're going to hear good music that makes sense in a— in a totality of a program.

No, I will ex— I will— I'm happy to explain it if anyone's interested. I just don't think people are interested. But what is interesting, actually, let me interrupt you once, once again.

What I think is really interesting is members of the orchestra, over the period of rehearsals, will often come up and say, "You know, this piece that we're doing and this piece that we're doing, I never noticed, but there's this thing about them that's the same." I'm sorry, there's a siren outside.

(Laughs) I mean—

Yeah.

Yeah.

In the most, okay. All right, in the most basic way, Talk about— if you're having— if you're having soloists, you have to— you have to first know what the soloists are doing, right? Okay, and then you have to find something that compliments what they're doing. And that's the— and that's the trick. So that's why I have very long lists of things. Now, our soloists, many of whom have played with us many times, understand that when they come and play with us, I don't ask them to do anything. I ask them, I don't say, "Can you please do this?" I always say, "What do you want to play that you never get to play?" Which is why we've done the Stravinsky Violin Concerto and the Martinů Violin Concerto and the both Shostakovich cello concertos. Not the one that everyone does, but also the one that very few people do.

Or the, yeah. Or the— or the Britten Violin Concerto.

Or all these things. Or, you know, the— the concertmaster from Minnesota Orchestra played with us once, and she's awesome, you know. She's a really good player. And I said, "What have you never done?" And she said, "You know, I've never performed live with an orchestra the Bruch Scottish Fantasy." Uh-huh. So, it makes it special for the soloists, and fortunately, we hadn't done it. Um, and it— it's something that makes it special for the soloist, so they're bringing sort of this extra oomph. And then to try and find something that goes with that in a way that makes sense, not just not just something that's the same instruments, although that's part of it, too. But to find something that goes with— that's, you know, it means going through everything and and examining everything. Certainly, at the beginning of every year—

I don't remember, but it was not more Bruch. Um, it wasn't a piece composed in Brooklyn, was it? No. (Leibowitz laughs) Or by a Brooklyn composer. That would have been very Enigma, David Leibowitz.

It's enough that the co— that the conductor is from Brooklyn. Um—

Okay, so, at the beginning of every year, right? Please. Or the beginning of every two years or so. And I have lists of— of pieces that I would like to perform with the orchestra.

And those lists are smaller. I mean, I know that I want to do— I knew that last year that I wanted us to do the Sibelius 7 because we, you know, we hadn't finished the cycle, and we wanted to do that. And some other pieces. And then along with some of the other pieces that the soloists were doing, I was able to put that and other pieces together. So, the program that we were um, the program that we wanted to do in March, that then we thought we were going to do in May, and then we thought we were going to do in October, and then we thought we were going to do in December, and then we thought we were going to do in February, that we're not doing, um, was— the soloist is a pianist and she wanted to play the Gershwin Concerto in F. Mhm. And I know that one of the pieces that I wanted to play that year was the Honegger Fifth Symphony, Di tre re. (Shapiro vocalizes) Yeah, I know. Charles Munch and Karajan.

It sounds better than that. Sorry. (Leibowitz laughs) And then, uh, the other thing that we had on the program was the Nielsen, um, overture, Helios.

Okay. So, one thing that joins those people is they're all kind of contemporaries. Yeah. They're all, but they're all different. I mean, Gershwin has certainly a French influence in his music, and Honegger has a sort of, you know, his influences are— are more vague. They're— in that piece, anyway. They're more international than French. And the— and the Nielsen, um, I thought went well in its sort of exclam— exclamatory nature, with something like the— with both of those pieces. All three of those pieces are very ta-da! They all are very, uh, um, external. They're very, um— what do you call when someone is very um outgoing? They're very outgoing. They're very outgoing.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. There are— there are links all over the place. I know I haven't looked at that music in about a year, I don't remember. No, I do. Uh, but I know— I know the pieces. Yeah, yeah, there are— there are many links. They're— they're all— you know, Gershwin and Honegger are really have a similar language that's being used differently at this, you know, and it's and it's roughly around the same time, the same 20 years or so. So, I mean, that's— that's part of it. That's how some of those programs come together. Um. Now, sometimes you'll do a program that's devoted to one composer. For example, I remember you Waxman Poetica and also, my god, getting it into your soul when you did Mahler 9.

Right.

No, no. The program that we did, it wasn't Götterdämmerung, it was the end of Siegfried— it was the end of Siegfried. Siegfried. That was the second half of the program. The first half was The Rosenkavalier suite.

Well, I figure we had everyone for the Wagner, we might as well do the Strauss.

No, no, because the soloist's decision was first. Um, you know, sometimes things come together. It's not all intellectually done. Uh, it just works together. It's like you have an aha moment, like, "Oh, yeah, let's do the Strauss," because they're both roughly the same length, they balance the program. Um, there's not really anything else you can do on a program. I mean, the— the Wagner was, you know, like almost an hour. It's the last— it's the final scene, but it's longer than the— the three scenes to— that come before it. And we had really amazing soloists, uh, who, again—

Right, right. We start there and it goes on, uh, you know, I mean, it doesn't— it's not doom at the end of that thing, but, you know, it's— doom is coming. Um, it's a— it's a kind of a happy ending. Um.

Yeah. Um, but those two pieces— those two pieces came together. I thought they really balanced each other well. Um, Okay. the— yeah. Now, almost all volunteer orchestra with many pros brought in for various reasons, some come in because they want to just learn new repertoire that they haven't been doing, others you need to hire to fill slots—I know about this from working with you—mhm. Um, the interesting thing, too, is that there are certain instruments or certain kinds of players that don't you need to get, quotes, "a pro"? Wouldn't you say?

Um, I'm not sure I understand. You mean to pay? I'll tell you, we— we pay maybe three or four people at, in a concert, and that's with a full orchestra. You know, if we have a harp, obviously we pay a harpist. Yeah, because they're not, you know, I— we don't want them to have to come into every rehearsal. Right. Um, maybe a percussionist to fill out a section that's large. But that's, you know what, that's it.

Uh, first rehearsal, we read everything. Everyone who can be there is there. Second rehearsal is usually a string sectional. Mhm. And then, and then after that, we— and I— I treat all the rehearsals in as professional manner as I can. I know many of our players are professionals, most of the wind players—certainly, the principal wind players are all conservatory graduate-level players. Uh, the string players tend to be amateur players who have studied all their life, gone to, you know, orchestra camp and all that kind of thing, and then have chosen, you know, not to be a musician professionally, but they're very good. So, um, that's why we have a string sectional, because as a section, you know, I want to make sure that the— the feeling of the section is there. The winds are— are trust— I can trust more— I don't want to say that. The winds, everyone's a soloist in the wind section. I know they're all— they all come ready to go in many ways. And then, rehearsals—

No. But, um, in rehearsals, I try and do things as it— if it were a professional orchestra. I don't go back. I'm like— I say, after the string sectional, we're going to do the first movement of this on the next week, the second movement of this on the next week, and we're not going back. So we don't just play— we don't just play through things to play through them. We really work on everything in detail, and then we move on. And if you've missed that, as we say in school, if you miss the work, you got to get it from somebody else. No. And come in— and come in prepared. So, um,

No, they're a volunteer orchestra. We're talking about maybe three or four people that are not.

Yeah. Yeah, what what do we do— when we— how—

There are many community orchestras in New York and of many levels, and we certainly, you know, someone may come to want to play with us, and we can gently suggest another group if they're— we think they're not ready, and we, you know, we're— we— we're happy to say that in a very nice way. Uh, I don't audition players. Um, someone emails to ask about playing, I ask them about themselves, tell me about your background, your experience. And, it's really— I would say 99% of the time, you can tell by the way someone describes their background the level of their playing. If someone says, "Oh, I don't remember the orchestra, but I remember we played a Mozart, we played a Beethoven," Mhm. generally speaking, I know that they're— they're probably not ready. And I make it clear that we need people— we'll take people only have at least 10 years of orchestra experience. Right? Uh, less than that, and I try not to take, in many ways, uh, students, undergraduate students, because their schedules are often crazy and then they— and that's fine. You know, students are meant to be flaky in many ways. So just with the— just in general, I don't do that. I try not to do that, unless they're amazing and dedicated. Um, but— oh, but then, uh, we ask them to come in for a rehearsal or two. I'm getting there. We ask them to come in for a rehearsal or two, and I tell them that we may ask them to play the music that's been rehearsed for me and the section leader of the concertmaster.

I don't ask them to play a concerto. I don't ask them to play scales in three octaves with arpeggios. Um, and that's string players. Wind players, wind players, there's been no movement in our wind section for about 10 or 15 years. (Leibowitz laughs) Yeah. Uh, they're not going anywhere.

I— I don't know if there are composers that I would never do. I— I think that there are some pieces by some— there are pieces by, let's say there's a composer, and there— there's a piece by that composer that I think is not worth doing, but there's a piece by that composer that I think is worth doing. Um, I don't think— no, I don't think there's any composer that's not worth doing as long as the music, as long as I like the music. Um, I mean, who are we talking about? Florent Schmitt? Well, you can talk about dead— dead people. I think it's bad taste to talk about living people.

Yeah, you know, for a while, I forget which Schmitt. Is it either Florent Schmitt or Florent Schmitt? Who's the French one? Florent. Florent Schmitt. Um,

Right. Uh, so, someone had been suggesting Schmitt to me, the French Schmitt, um, and I— I listened to initially, and I thought it was interesting. And then I went to a concert in Philadelphia, I heard it and I thought, "Yeah, this is terrible." So, I haven't really looked further, but, um—

Yes, I know. Uh, so, you— you agree with me. Or else.

Yeah, so that was a— but that was an all-French program, and I— I would never do an all-French program. That just—

Canteloube, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I would like to do more Martinů. I would like to do more music by living composers. We commission— we commission a lot of music. Uh, but I would like to do more new music. I like doing new music. That music that I don't know uh, beforehand, not before the first rehearsal. But music that, um, is interesting and unknown and, um, you know, I— I— that's really it. I I don't I don't have any— the composers that I want to do, we've done. I mean, we've done music by them, I want to do more of them. Um, you know, there's a young composer here named Ana [Agnieszka] Klein whose music I want to do more of. Um, I just heard about an Estonian composer today who's 99. I had never heard of her, and I listened to a piece of hers and I think it's fantastic, and I want to— want to do that. Uh, one of the pieces that we wanted to do this year that we didn't get a chance to do was by, uh, a Soviet composer, I forget her first name, her last name is Kashperova, who was, uh, a contemporary of Shostakovich or a teacher, and her— the symphony of hers has never been played in the West, really, and it's fantastic. Um, so, you know, I'm always looking for these things that are unusual, that are great, but, for some reason, haven't been done. Like Amy Beach's symphony, we did that, and that's fantastic.

Yeah.

Thanks, Michael. It's been a pleasure.