Tim Fain

It's good to see you, too.

Was that—was that the performance with, uh, Richard Danielpour was down there?

No, I think it was the—the Dvořák's, um, piano quintet in A, yes. Was—

Yeah, yeah, it was a performance out there at the, um, at the Star Auditorium, I think, in Moab. Um, I'd had a—a nice, hearty breakfast at Jailhouse, and, uh,—

—you know, a good—good look at the Red—Red Mountains and—and we went on stage to play that piece, and there was something magical about that—that evening. That was one of my first times down there at the festival.

Samuel Barber's—Samuel Barber's concerto, we did Nielsen—

—D minor, Schindler's List—

Mhm.

You can say that. Yeah, that—that works well for both of us, I think. That helps.

Well, you know, we're going to get to work on the piece, and—and it always—it always comes out a little different than I think either one of us would—would expect. You know, that's—that's the—the, um,—I think the real blessing, uh, and the—the, um,—just, uh, one of the—the really wonderful aspects of working with living composers, and, um,—and this collaboration, with any—any other creators, you, um,—really pass this material back and forth. And, at the end, you, uh,—you know, one winds up with the piece of music that just feels like a perfect fit, you know? Because everybody approaches their instrument in a different way. And, uh,—uh, it's a process by which we make, um, a piece of music our own, uh, before we go out and—and perform it. And I look forward to that—that process, uh, whether I'm working with—with you or Aaron Kernis or Philip Glass, it's, uh,—it's a necessary, and I think um, just a—a wonderful part of this collaboration.

Well, that's very—that's very—it's very sweet of him to say that. I remember when I—one of the first times we were playing together, I was—it was at Carnegie Hall and—and uh, we were doing a concert version of his work, Einstein on the Beach. And we had rehearsed the—the piece, with Michael Riesman was—was kind of, um, uh, master of ceremonies for the rehearsal, and Philip and he were playing, these two doing keyboards. And there's a large movement in there that's just violin all by itself. And we would always skip it in rehearsals because, you know, we didn't want—want all the other players to sit around for five or six minutes waiting around while I play this thing through. And even the dress rehearsal, Michael said, "All right, let's just skip it." And I looked at him like, "Are you sure?" And he said, "Yeah, we're—we're skipping this." The whole—the choir was there and—and so the first time that they heard my, um, my interpretation of Knee Play 2 from Einstein was in the concert. And, um, and I remember I started playing it, and I—I do play it quite differently than—than any other violinist who've—who've played that piece. Um, for one, it's a bit faster in some sections. And Philip sort of turned—he adjusted his chair and sort of turned around with this perplexed look on his face, but kind of a, uh,—and—and Michael looked—oh, I think he al—he he he moved his pages as if he wasn't sure what I was playing. And after about a minute or so, Philip got this huge smile on his face, (Fain laughs) and Michael sort of looked like he had acquiesced to, um, what I was doing. After the performance, Philip came to me and he said, "You know, there's—there's no going back now." (Fain laughs)

You were at that performance, yes.

People—people like it? Yeah.

Well, when we—we would play that together, and Philip would always, um, just sit at the piano while I played it. (Fain laughs) I know, I know. And I always thought that very invigorating just to have him.

Because we played it almost 100 times. Yeah.

Well, if you pay attent— really pay attention, you'll see me in, uh, oh, five or six scenes, you know, where I'm thrashing about there on camera with the dancers, circling around. It was—it was exhilarating to film, uh, and so many friends from that—uh, from that production, uh, so many people with whom I'm—I remain friends, and—

—time and—

And also, uh, a piece by Daniel Ott, it was choreographed by Benjamin Millepied, that was actually shortly before um, he and Darren asked me to—to join forces with them for Black Swan. Um, that—I've—I've worked extensively with—with Benjamin on—on multiple projects. And that was a piece called Double Aria. We did, um, we're all on stage—it was a pas de trois, you know. Uh, we're all on stage together, myself and two dancers, Ask la Cour and Maria Kowroski.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I—I first really took a deep dive into the intersection of music and emerging technology in a project that I worked on with Google, with YouTube. It was director Jessica Brillhart approached me about uh, creating a film that would be almost like a— a music video, uh, a performance video for a short work that I—I had composed back in 2015 for violin and orchestra called Resonance. And she—well, we—we kind of arrived at this idea of using music as a through line, as a connective tissue in a piece in virtual reality, to help to massage, if you will, the—the viewer's experience uh, in quick cuts from place to place. Now, when you're in VR, in a headset, a cut is a much more, uh, is a— is a much more substantive, a substan— uh, substantive, uh, event. Uh, it— it really involves uh, taking you from one place and transporting you to another place. Because it's immersive and 180 or 360-degree experience, um, this can be very jarring, uh, very confusing for our brains. Um, and our hope was that a continuous thread of music would would help. So I think— I think it works to some, to some degree. The final scene is, uh, you know, um, they're surrounded by a full orchestra in, uh, Avatar Studios in New York City, and we said, "Well, let's get a full orchestra for the final scene," because with Google, uh, they said, "Why not? Let's do it." Um, and you see this evolution of this melody. Resonance is a loose theme and variations, um, and in the space of 3 minutes, we wanted to take— uh, take it from extremely intimate to, um, just the full forces of a symphony orchestra and then right back down to uh, to this intimacy. As if the entire thing had taken place in my imagination. So from there, I—I've worked on numerous projects. Uh, you know, VR, AR, uh, a project called Metamorphic was featured down at Sundance um, this past festival. Um, well, actually no. Well, th— the— uh, it was—it was just about exactly a year ago, uh, they're doing virtual, uh, later this year, in Jan— I mean later this month, in January. Um, and, and I've—I've—I've always, I think, been interested, as—as so many of us are, in just what music can do, how—how music can help us, uh, to just gain insight and, uh, within ourselves, or can— can really help us heal, or can um— it's such a powerful tool, it can do so many things. And I, this past year, uh, 2020, uh, I partnered with my friend, Jacob Marshall, uh, rock and roll drummer and pianist, um, along with Studio Elsewhere, and we began to create these recharge rooms, spaces in hospitals where the health practitioners, the nurses and doctors, could go to experience a moment of relaxation and peace and literally recharge themselves. You y— you know, especially with— with COVID, uh, a nurse or a doctor to leave the hospital, even just for a quick break, involves so much um, time, wasting a set of PPE, um, equipment, uh, you can't just leave between, uh, be— when you're taking breaks, and, you know, sometimes 14-hour shifts in a day.

So, there was really a problem, um, at the front lines, health practitioners really— really burning out and losing, uh, their focus, and that can be very dangerous, of course. Mhm. So, we wanted to create spaces for them, and we ended up using music which Jacob and I have co-composed, um, scent, um, different sorts of sensory imagery on film, immersive experience, um, sound design, and, um, potted plants. And really, it was—it was very inspiring to see how, um, when there was a need, uh, that we could very quickly, um, we were able to just kind of rewrite the rules of wh— what was possible in an institution like that. We have, I think at this point, um, 12 different rooms across the Mount Sinai system in New York City, where, um, we're launching into collaboration with Harvard, and also with Yale, and a couple other um hospitals around the United States. So I'm really excited about that. We just released, we decided, Jacob and I decided to release actually, one of the piece of music that we'd written together um, for the public, uh, which we did on New Year's— New Year's Eve. So you can check that out if you want. We go by the moniker, Embassy, at E-M-B-C. That's Embassy. So that's, uh—

I mean, it's on any— anywhere you listen to music: Spotify, Apple Tune, Apple, iTunes, SoundCloud, YouTube, everywhere. It's called— it's called Greenwood Butterflies. It's name of the song.

That's right. Um, I have another short piece called Freedom, um, which I released as a charity single, um, a few years back. Uh, and, um, also a work called Glacial, which came out on Earth Day.

As a celebration of— of just the planet, and and I think there's a sort of an urgency in the— in the music, which maybe speaks to—

Glacial. Oh, I appreciate that, Michael. Yeah. And I just— I've just finished up a uh, a full-length violin concerto, actually, as well, um, called Edge of a Dream, which, uh, is going to be, um, the idea behind that is is, uh, bringing immersive technology and, uh, visuals into the concert hall. So imagine that you get tickets to this, gives a link to download an app for the show. You get to the concert hall, you get a little cardboard viewer, stick your phone in. Uh, the lights go down, the lights in your headset start to glow. So you put it on, and you see, um, uh, you know what's in— in the films, and that goes dark, and the action transfers to the stage, and you have this oscillation, um, between what is um, what is real, and what is more ephemeral. I get a real kick out of, um, just sort of uh, really sort of reframing what we know to be real, uh, with what can be done, uh, very convincingly in virtual reality.

I think like, you know, in these sorts of things, most likely the technology would be optional. You know, there would probably be some— I would— I would want there to be some of the imagery projected in flat, uh, behind the orchestra on a projection screen. You have to. So there would be something for everybody, and, um, you know, for those who did want to really push boundary of what was possible in a concert hall, uh, there would be, uh, a more full experience, I think. But there could be people who just want to— there's— it's always like this, you know, at movies, people who just want to close their eyes and— and sit back and— and take it all in, just listen to—

Oh, yeah, well, I mean, I— music was my first— first language, you know, in terms of learning how to write and read. Um, like I knew— I knew about the notes and, uh, before I knew how to read English. Uh, (Fain chuckles) so, yeah, it's— it's been, um, I think the ways in which I've composed have— have evolved. Um, but throughout that, throughout the through line is that I— I always, if I can, I almost always want to begin by writing out the notes by hand. It just— it feels, um, like home to me. Whatever works. That's very much the case for this new violin concerto, as well, you know? It's, uh, I— I look at, um, at the publishing stage, making things look pretty for me is something that I don't want to get into that until I'm pretty sure that I'm done, because once it looks so pretty, why would you want to change something that looks so good? Even if you know that you need to get in there and revise some— a passage. Well, you're— you're— you're— you're going to— I know that, Tim, but wait a minute, you're going to— (Shapiro laughs) you're going to— you're going to edit the hell out of my piece, like you did the others. So, my— Well, okay, it's diff— I think it's maybe different when it's somebody else's. Um, coming to— coming to it with— with, and this goes the same for me, as well. You know, when— when I'm working on, on a piece of music, I don't like to— I don't— I almost never like to master my own tracks. Send it to somebody else, even if I think I could do a good job. Um, Yeah. I want a— I want a second set of ears. I want— I want us, I want somebody to look at, and to listen to it, wha— and process it through their own experience. I think that's really important. It's a really important stage of— of creating.

I— I know what you're saying. And, and certainly, there— there are works of art that have lasted. Um, sometimes it's the luck of the draw, sometimes the fashion of the day, uh, sometimes, uh, there'll be a champion, uh, later on down the line who will rediscover, either, uh, a composer, generally speaking, or, uh, a work, or subset of works within a composer's— unknown composer's opus. I don't know. I— I have a sort of a different take on that, maybe, Michael. I— I don't really think too much about it at all. I feel like, like, like, if I— if I'm worrying too much about what, what I create or what, you know, this or that composer is creating that's going to last, I feel like it's already, um, if I'm focusing on what I think is going to make it last, or what qualities will lead to that, I feel like I'm already looking at it through a lens that, um, dates, uh, the art in— in a certain way. I— I feel like that, like I, um, I don't— it's not that I don't necessarily feel qual— I do feel qualified to— to to see, and it's certainly my own personal preferences what is really well-constructed and what is effective, and what really moves me. Certainly, I mean, that— that is so, um, clear and so important. But as far as what— what makes something last, I feel like if you're too concerned about that, your— your work as art is just going to come out already feeling sort of— sort of dated, you know.

No, it really doesn't. I— I, it— what what occurs to me is, I really love playing this, and it speaks to me, Right. or I feel so-so about it and it doesn't really speak to me. Um, and I, I, I think one can sort of assume maybe if something speaks to you as a performer, then you— it— it— it becomes this vessel. It becomes this means by which you can most effectively express yourself, you know? I'm not expressing Beethoven's feelings when I play his Sonata No. 10, violin and piano. I'm expressing my feelings. These are— when I read a story, I am— when I read Proust, I'm projecting my own experiences, my own story, onto— onto what— what he wrote. Um, the— the story becomes this, um, tool, becomes this way that I go deeper into myself. And in that, I can— I can feel that, um, that this will become something that people will also enjoy, because they are seeing the volatility and— and the, um, distillation of my own feelings coming through this piece. I think that's a beautiful way of saying that. It does work, because art, you know, evokes something in me and brings out a side of me that I, th— th— that, that communicates, that would otherwise maybe lay dormant and wouldn't be expressed. Beautiful. You know, I, Tim, I can mention something specific and also, be a big selfish, but between the two of us, we can talk about these things of our common experience. You've recorded my second— with Stefan Winter—my second, uh, Violin and Piano Sonata, and you performed it in LA as well, at— at LACMA. Wonderful piece, yeah. Yeah. The slow movement, which is, I think, one of the most moving things I've ever written, you gave it a special dimension and depth and profundity that I hoped for when I was writing it, but they're not completely here. So I would venture to tell you that in Beethoven's 10th, when he wrote that Kreutzer Sonata, was he really thinking of how Tim Fain was going to going to go, (Shapiro vocalizes) was he going to think of the way you're going to phrase that, or those— Well, there's the second movement of— of Sonata No. 9, the Kreutzer, it's, um— Nine, sorry, nine. No, it's fine. Both 10 and— and 9. 10 is almost— there's— there's Schubertian moments in that piece, throw back to— But you see what I'm saying, the way you fra— the way you phrase something. The way you, yeah, the way you phrase something, the way you phrase something is in, and the way you put it out there, and the way you're— the pressure of your bow, or the way you— you're pushing down on those strings with your vibrato. All of those elements, in your case, I know, having worked with you and seen you so many times, it comes from, directly from your core, and if it's not coming from your core right away, you— you feel you've not given enough. I've seen that in you. You're not happy with yourself. And, but you mostly get there, which is the genius of your playing. So when I say, when I heard you play either the Dvořák that— that night and I said to Marge, "Who is that guy?" I heard a sound in that playing that I had never heard before, and then when we did the Barber or you did my sonata or my variations, when you did, uh, Knee Play 2 at Carnegie for Phil, Phil's Einstein, I mean, I have never heard these kinds of things. So when you're talking about now, you're imparting something that the music is turning on something in you. To conclude our talk today, talk about the moments that you want to seek going forward, that would, either in your own compositions or in the compositions of other people, where's this going? As you go older and become even more simple and complex at the same time?

Well, uh, I do think that, um, I'm very interested with, uh, the way that, um, I— I think two— two things, two— two things that— that would be very much on opposite sides of the spectrum. One is very much looking to the past, well, both deal with the future for— for me. But in a sense, one is exploring possibilities of a symphony orchestra, just an acoustic symphony orchestra. There's, Right. um, there's so much that can be done with that. And I am just constantly, uh, so, enthralled and— and moved by just the acoustic sounds of, you know, 80 players working together. Um, and then on the flip side, would really be, um, how can music lend, uh, what role does music play in, uh, in a sort of collusion of all the senses, uh, as we experience art, multi-sensory art? Beautiful. Um, how— how music interacts with the visual, the auditory, and the sensual, uh, and, uh, by— by auditory sound design. You know, the— the spi— the sonic space, which within music is experienced, um, and, and how, uh, that can affect people. How it can affect the overall, uh, impact of the music itself. Mhm. Um, and I'm really interested in exploring, uh, just emerging technologies right at the bleeding edge of what's possible, um, because I think there's so much potential to to unwrap and to open up, um, complex concert music, if you will, uh, in that way, to to people who may um, people who who may not have known that they, uh, have a love of music, or may not know how to approach music in a way, and and opening it up for for as many people as possible through, um, experiential and multi-sensory art.

Oh well, it's— it— it depends, um. I think that music certainly, while it may not have the potential to— to save the world, um, it does have the potential to to help people.

Um, I see that. To repair. I think it's the same thing, you know, healing, repairing. Yeah. Um, bodies heal, they repair. Um, healing is repairing, for me. That's right. Um, if I understand your meaning, then, uh, seeing, you know, the tens, I believe even hundreds of thousands of people, uh, some of the the— the um, the participants in these multi-sensory rooms that I've been creating with Jacob Marshall as Embassy, Right. um, collaboration between Embassy and Studio Elsewhere, these recharge rooms, um, we've opened some of them up to uh, patients and their families and friends. So, um, of the uh, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people who have come through these rooms and experienced them, mhm, uh, we've received overwhelmingly uh, positive um, feedback from from uh from this, and— and I do believe, uh, now, especially after seeing that, that, uh, just there is an enormous healing uh, power in music, too. And there was power to heal and to repair. Um, and I— there— there may be other ways as as well.

My pleasure, Michael. It's great to talk, and I'm— I'm looking forward to your new violin concerto.