Anton Nel

It's a pleasure to be with you, Michael. Thank you.

Oh my gosh! [Laughs]

Well, with a piece like that, of course, it's something that I had heard before, and that's what attracted me to it. I had heard of it, and then I heard it. And, you know, subsequently when I was asked to play it, of course, this was very, very, very exciting.So it is something that is in my ear, which I would—I think when you've heard it before, you approach it differently than when you learn something that you have never heard or don't know. Right. So, basically, for me, when I learn a piece, I do a lot of reading of it first. Even if it's very rough, just to get a basic idea to lay out immediately what the challenges are, both artistically and technically.And in that case, of course, it's a compendium of virtuoso exercises. So you practice those sort of separately. A lot of it—the last movement, for example, is sort of like an étude. But then, when you get into it, it is something I find that is so colorful and so exotic. And, um, there's a certain sound world that you have to go into, that you have to cultivate when you work on it.Because I feel that when you play something like that, of course, it's going to sound flashy and amazing anyway, but I think it has such a big artistic component that you have to bring forth, plus this whole sort of exotic atmosphere. I mean, he composed it in Egypt, for crying out loud, so you have to. [Laughs] You know? So that—it's an interesting—I mean, it's like a giant character piece. And when you get into the second movement where he uses those wonderful scales and, you know, some, you know, song that is sung by the boatman on the Nile, etc., etc. It's—it's fun. I love the process of learning it, even though it can be frustrating at times because it is so difficult.But of course, with Saint-Saëns being who he is, I mean, he was a genius when he wrote for the piano, so, um, the rewards are terrific. I mean, you practice it and it does stick, you know, sort of like Liszt or Debussy or Chopin. It does—it sticks well. It's a pleasure to play that.

Wow.

Yes, in Algiers, maybe.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh gosh, well with Schubert, I mean he's one of these people that—when I teach Schubert, for example, that's—this is a good—would be a good thing to say because I approach Schubert sort of like I teach him to my students.

I mean, for me, everything in him is related to song. So for me, when I study a Schubert piece, even if I—even if I know it, I go back and listen to, you know, as many songs as I can lay my hands on. I love the chamber music. I love listening to the string quartets, um, you know, some of the symphonic music, Rosamunde, all of these things. I—and this I do pretty much with every composer—I mean, I immerse myself in the music of this composer, often not piano, because, I mean, when Schubert wrote for the piano, I mean, it's—of course, he wrote beautifully for the instrument, but so much of it...What I like the best about Schubert—and this is, you know, in absolutely everything he wrote—is he will—he'll write a phrase and you'll go, "That's really beautiful." And then, in the next phrase, it'll be the same thing, but he might alter one note in it, and suddenly the entire emotional content of the phrase is turned around. And just like in his songs, you know, he'll write the same phrase, and in the first—in the first phrase, he might use the word "life," and then "death" in the next one. And it's just—it is just astonishing to me. And so for me, exploring that...Of course, what—what I—you may know this, but—but in recent—oh, in the past 10 or 15 years, I've been doing a lot of playing on historic instruments. So I've gotten to know a lot of these instruments that this music was—was—was written for during the time. So, and that changes a lot of, um, decisions that I make when I do the interpretive, artistic side of it. Um, you know, how I voice, how I pedal, how I articulate, how I read it, how I read the score. All of that is now—I'm—I'm so much more informed than I ever was, and I think that contributes a lot.But with Schubert, above all, it is this, um, you know, it is this world that is—well, [Laughs] it's just—it's just—it's just amazing to me. I mean, he's one of these people where I, you know, I'm always in awe of how a human could create what he did, and so much of it.

I see him, yes! Yeah, well, you know, he might have known—you know, I don't know, these people knew, I mean they—they didn't have long, but it is amazing to me. I—I am always playing Schubert, and I think I have five students at the moment playing Schubert sonatas, so I am immersed on a daily—daily, daily basis.

Yes. But the music explains a lot.

Okay.

Okay.

Yes.

He does.

Yes.

Everything, yes.

Mm.

Gosh.

Well, that's so interesting. I mean, and I think—I think Mozart has this—has the same sort of thing. Same thing. It's something—it's interesting, I had this chat with a friend of mine the other day. I have a—a friend who comes over every couple of weeks and we actually—we play a lot of Schubert piano duets together, and we were—we were marveling at this thing, because—and we were saying the same thing, "So what is it about this that is so beautiful?" And we decided that it's the fact that it is something that is so simple, but at the same time so expressive, all at the same time. And we sort of decided, you know, after a few glasses of wine, that—that greatness can really be defined as a person who can perform miracles with almost nothing.

So that it's not this—because with him—with him and like with Mozart, I mean, there is never an excess. But the—the, you know, you can play something and no matter—or sing something or, no matter what the level of sophistication of the listener, they are touched by this without knowing why.

Oh, yes.

Definitely.

Yes.

It varies a lot. It varies a lot. Um, it's just—just on a sort of a—I'll try to explain it on a very basic kind of level. Because there are—or or there used to be, I don't think so much anymore, but there used to be sort of different schools of piano playing, you know, like the so-called Russian school and the so-called French school, and then the sort of the German, you know, the Schnabel, whatever school. They—and they all sort of held their hands in a slightly different way. Um, but the basic—and the—and I teach this way too.Um, my teacher in South Africa, by the way, was a Leschetizky student who studied with Liszt, and my teacher knew Debussy and Ravel and Britten and, you know, heard Rachmaninoff. He had all these peo—I mean, I was a very lucky person. He made the first—he made the first ever long-playing records on Decca of the Debussy Études and played the world premiere of the Hindemith Piano Concerto under John Barbirolli. I mean, this is the kind of—where—where I come from. But he—but he had a very basic way of teaching.

His name is Adolph Hallis, H-A-L-L-I-S. And you can find some of him on YouTube still. I mean, I studied with him between the ages of about, um, 13 and 20. It was—it was a very significant part of my life.

You know, in a—he had—I had music in my hand, you know, with Ravel's handwriting in it. You know, I played, you know, Gaspard de la nuit and he would say, "Well, Ravel said..." [Shapiro laughs] You know? Or—or my teacher said, "Liszt said." Okay. So this was awesome!But, um, just to get back to the technical aspect, that was where I was taught, um, when—this sort of sounds like mumbo jumbo to the average person, but it's really important because, I mean, the basic way a sound on the piano is produced is, I mean, you press a key down, a hammer hits a string and the sound comes out. I mean, that is the thing.But then we are these con artists who give the impression that we actually can connect things together, make sounds sing, play legato—this is all nonsense! But we create the illusion that this happens, and it's by this super-fine gradations, in other words, the speed that the hammer hits the key, from one note to the next, and how much you space, how they're connected, how they're graded—it's so fine. I mean, that's the whole art of piano playing, it's right there.And the way you vary the speed of the—of the key is, of course, with the most immediate attack would be with a curved finger, so you—if you do that with on the—on the tip, it'll be the quickest attack. So you can use that for brilliant, articulate, and things like that. But the—but the flatter you get, the slighter delay, because it's not quite as quick here, so it's in a tiny bit a little slower. So that's why you see a lot of people, for example, play—say—say you—say you watch Horowitz, for example, play...

He played—he played with very flat fingers. And a lot of that got that very specific sound. It was his sort of way of playing cantabile, which, um, slight del—slight delays of the—of the hammer hitting the string. So all of that, people do that a lot. You know, some people, uh, you know, the—the old French school played slightly flat, but with very high kind of fingers, which I— doesn't work for me, but, um, because—but—but whatever you—uh, whatever you do, uh, or try to do to—to bring the music to life, of course, is the thing. But that's a very basic principle. It—you—you change—you change around a lot. And of course, when you play—when you play on early instruments where the keys are short, you—you automatically play very much with more curved fingers because, you know, other—unless you can sort of go on the Jenny Craig diet and make your hand smaller! [Shapiro laughs] It's just— It's amazing. It's fascinating, really, fascinating.

Yes, I can imagine.

Are you sure?

Are you sure? No, it's...

Well, I—I—I think that...

Oh, well, we—well, we can Zoom! This is very fashionable, you know. [Shapiro laughs] No, but—but I mean, all of that stuff, um, of course, the less notes there are in the score, the harder it gets. So, I mean, I, you know, playing Bach and Mozart well is—it's so rewarding, but it's—it's super challenging for everybody.

It is.

Oh, it's something that I love. Normally there are three instruments here, but the other one is is has a—is out for a visit. That is—that is a fortepiano.

Um, which is—which is an instrument I play very serious—seriously, and I love. That is—that is a copy of a Viennese instrument from the 1790s. It's a five-octave instrument. Um, it's something that Haydn would have had. Mozart and Beethoven certainly would have played on something like that. Um, I play a lot...

Oh, excuse me. The maker of this instrument is—his—he's a man called Robert Smith, who's from Massachusetts. Um, he—probably the most famous fortepiano maker in the world now is a man called Paul—Paul McNulty, who—who lives in—who lives in the Czech Republic. But—but he apprenticed with this guy, so this was—is like a cousin. So, um, it's a replica of an instrument by a guy called Könicke, which is sort of with Walter and Stein. Um, it's in that league, and that was very, very fashionable in the late 1700s. And pretty soon after this one, the range, of course, expanded. This is only five octaves, but you can play everything up until, you know, middle Beethoven on it. It's marvelous.

It—you can play the Waldstein on it, although it—it—the Waldstein only goes up to the G there, but the Waldstein wasn't written for a Viennese instrument. Beethoven got an Erard, and that was what it was written for, so you shouldn't play it on there. But this is especially good for things like Haydn and C.P.E. Bach. Amazing.

He did! He did, and he—he was, you know, of course, and he was a tough customer. He liked it up to a point, and I think that instrument inspired him, especially the, you know, with the special pedal things in the Waldstein, um, was inspired by that instrument. But pretty soon he got dissatisfied with it. Um, but it's—but it's interesting, it's something that I was not so aware of until recently. There's some excellent articles about it.

P—possibly, or a Pleyel, um...

Wow.

Oh my gosh.

Isn't that amazing?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I, um...

When you play chamber music, it makes you listen on a totally different level. I think if you only play solo music, you—you develop a whole—you're sort of—it's kind of egocentric. I mean, you, you know, it's only you, you, you all the time. Right. But when you play—when you play with—and I was lucky enough to do this from an early age, I have always—it's always been my first love. I don't think there is anything that I enjoy more than to play chamber music with good people.

And over the years, you know, I encountered these fantastic people that I play with, who, I mean, it's so enriching because you—they actually have the ability to make you sound better than you actually are. And, you know, and when you come back and play on your own, you don't think just piano anymore. I—I—I say this to my students often, too. I mean, and it's kind of—it's a fairly shocking thing to say, but—but it's really true. I mean, I—I mean, I like the piano, you know, of course, fine, but I love music. There's a difference. [Shapiro laughs] That—because for me, it's about the love of music, it's not about playing the piano, because that's just a small part of the whole thing.So when you play with orchestra, no matter whether it's—it can be the grandest and the biggest thing, it is still chamber music, whether—whether you're playing a Mozart concerto or the Rachmaninoff Third, it is the same.

Of course. Of course. I mean, it is—it is that. I mean, for me, unfortunately—and I think we have technology to blame partly for it—you know, there is such an accent nowadays because of, you know, these perfect CDs and the recordings and things you hear, that—and and also, of course, competitions that are, you know, a dime a dozen. People tend to—there's such a tremendous focus on the technical side of it, and—and especially training—the training of young people.I mean, I'm all for, of course, developing physically as soon as you can because there—there comes a point where, you know, things do slow down and you can't do it.

But—but, for—but not at the cost of the other stuff. I mean, that was where I was so lucky as a young person because I was born with—I mean, I was a late starter. I didn't play on—I couldn't play until I was 10. But I was, you know, I was a natural sort of at the instrument. But my teacher nonetheless, there was a—there was a certain technical regime that I did do it, but the accent was never on that. I mean, lessons were—um, and I was challenged, too. I mean, as a teenager, and of course I wanted to play fast, but he was no... So I had, you know, things like the Mozart C minor Fantasy and the Rondo in A minor. I mean...

Torture! For a 15-year-old, that is torture. Or slow preludes and fugues of Bach. You know, no pedal, you know, just— So, I am forever grateful, and you know, think— I mean, and I played, you know, big— I, the first time I played, you know, the Tchaikovsky Concerto, I was 15, for example. And I mean, I could manage—I could manage it, but he was—my teacher was always the least happy with the lyrical things. I could never play them quite to his satisfaction, and it was great because I was challenged in that way. So that was always first and foremost in my mind.

Yes.

Well, it really was a very— [Laughs] it has been a fascinating time, actually. I mean, I—I have felt, um, well, I have felt so lucky that I've been able to, um, that I've been able to keep working, because so many of my friends have not been as lucky. I mean, of course, I lost a year's worth of concerts, but I had my—my university job continued and this lovely room that I'm in, I could use to teach in. I taught—I taught in person because my students could come here. Um, I feel so lucky because I could do a lot of—I've learned more about technology than I ever wanted to, but, you know, I've sort of become a producer! [Laughs]

Because I've done so many of these bloody virtual—I am so sick of them. But I did many, and they were—and they were useful, and they were great. But, um, but you know what I also learned—I, you know, what I also learned: a lot of music. It was just fun. And I challenged myself to, um, I learned a lot of basic things that I've always wanted to do, but—but I also challenged myself to learn things out of my comfort zone. I mean, just this morning, this was a scream—you would like this—right before I came on with you, what was I practicing? Guajira duolina, David Baker, Arturo Márquez. Now, this is not music you would associate with me, right?

But—but I learned all—so I did that, you know, and I learned, um, I learned some of the George Walker sonatas. I, um...

Oh, yeah. And—and so, you know, I—I did things like, I read through all of the Albéniz Iberia because I thought that I should know it. You know, I just—I...

Oh, no, my hands are too fat. No, they're very— [Laughs] No, I sound horrible on it. But—but—but all of this stuff, I feel, you know, so I did a lot of things for my educational, um, thing. It was—it was nice. I mean, I... um, I—I—I don't—I enjoy being by myself, you know, so I immersed myself in a lot of things, um, I feel, um, I mean, certainly, I feel enriched in a certain way. But I also, you know, all of us, you know, this is not exactly what we signed up for.I've started to play—I've started to play some concerts for people again, and a—a couple of weeks ago—now a month now, sorry—I—I played my first real in-person concerts down with the San Antonio Symphony. I played the last Mozart concerto, which I picked specifically for this reason. And let me tell you something, that it was unbelievable. It was sort of like, um, a debut all over again. But you know, and everybody is so, you know, they—they—the hall is large, so they could let a few hundred...

Ah, it's so beautiful. But you know, so you play and you don't know what, you know, it's just amazing. And—and you can't, you know, it's—and then at the end, of course, everybody is very appreciative and so on and so, and so I had to play an encore, and, uh, I was getting ready to announce it, you know? And I realized I couldn't speak. I was just completely a wreck. I just had to sit there for a minute, [Shapiro laughs] because the whole thing is overwhelming.

Yes, it is. Yes, it's true.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Michael, it's a pleasure.