Wayne Marshall

Well, I'm fine, Michael. It is, uh, good to be, uh, uh, a patient on your, on your, on your, on your broadcast. I'm really, very—

That's it, yeah.

Yeah, I hope so. I hope so.

Well, let's see. Let's see. [Laughs] I know my wife would love the—the idea, yeah.

La Verdi, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, yeah.

There's no orchestral score. I mean, it's a piece which I know well. I mean, obviously, I mean, I've been—I mean, I first played it, I think, in 1985 at the—at the Albert Hall, which was for the, for the—no, actually, no, before actually I played it. Uh, it was probably about 1980—'82, I played it actually in Chichester, as part of the—the Chichester Festival. Jane Glover was then conducting.

Um, yeah. And so, I mean, I've, you know, I've known this piece a long time, but it—it's just that this idea of playing from the keyboard, I suppose, uh, I mean it started really, I suppose, with—with the Gershwin works, um.

And even as a small boy, as, you know, when I was about eight or nine, I used to watch André Previn conducting on this television program that he used to present on a Thursday evening, you know, André Previn's Music Night with the LSO. Of course, he—he played the piano and conducted the orchestra in the Gershwin works. So that's, in a way, that was probably the, the kind of idea that I, that I, that I, that I, you know, that that sort of, you know, gave me the idea to, to do this, but although I wasn't then, I wasn't even thinking about becoming a conductor. [Coughs] So, um, this idea of actually, uh, conducting from the keyboard, yeah, I mean, can only really work if you really know the work inside out, otherwise it's—it's—it's disaster.So, the idea of conducting the Poulenc, uh, you know, as long as I had a, a console, that's where you play the, the organ, uh, that's low enough and you can position it in such a way that you can actually see the, the leader of the orchestra and the principal cellist, um, is quite straightf—is quite straightforward. And the way I go about it is like anything. If I have to conduct and play is, I have to really teach the orchestra to become their own conductor, because there are some parts where I can't conduct them, so they have to remember certain things, as a kind of instinct thing. So it's really a, a kind of process of, of, of chamber music, uh, uh, you know, tuition, basically.

And yeah, so they have to remember certain things and, um, uh, especially the tempi. That's, that's, that's, that's the most important thing. I always sort of joke with them, you know, that, we know, unfortunately I only have two hands, so, you know, where's my third hand, of course, it's not—it's not, it's not, it's not there, so my head has to become my third hand. But it's, it—it's just a question of, of, of, you know, teaching them to remember and to, uh, just take—ju-just to take it on themselves really, to, to, to just do it.

Jeez, dude.

Uh, yeah.

Terribly troublesome, yeah, yeah. [Shapiro laughs] But, a lot of it is, you know, how we, how our ears, how we remember it. It's, it's a—it's a—it's a kind of oral thing rather than—

—than a visual thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it is that, yes.

Yes, yes, yes. Yes, just outside Manchester.

Barbados, yeah.

Great.

Oof. Very much.

Parents musical, yes. Um, and, um, you know, they, they, they came from a very church-going fam—, you know, background. And so this was instilled in us from, you know, from, well from birth, basically. And, you know, we used—we used to go to church, and I think that without, [clears throat] I don't think without that I would be the, the musician I am, th—that I've become, because, you know, it was really my—my—my, um, foundation, my building blocks for, you know, for, for, for, you know, for being a musician.

I did, but not until much later.

Well, it's, well, Church of England, like Anglican. Um, I mean, the thing is, I, I, um, I mean, I'm, I started the piano when I was three, and then I started to play the organ mainly, you know, around about the age of 10, 11. Um, that was it, so that came later, but I mean I've been hearing this instrument, you know, week in, week out, and, um, you know, I was just dying to get my hands on it, because, you know, it was something that really fascinated me. And, um, it wasn't, [laughs] it wasn't, it wasn't actually through the, you know, it it actually happened when I was at my first school, actually in, in, in Oldham. And the music—music teacher then just asked me to go and play a chord of G major on the organ. And, you know, and the rest is history, basically, that was it. You know, so that's how that all started.

Yes.

Well, it is, Michael, yes. [Coughs] It's just that, of course, that, you know, the organ, uh, is an instrument which, uh, you know, it, it, the keyboard makes no sound, all the sound is generated, of course, by the, the registers, the stops, and the whole instrument, of course, is blown by, by air. So, one really has to learn keyboard technique on a piano, where you have the strings and the, the hammers and, uh—

—you make, you, you, you, you, you use, you know, you make the s—, you create the sound, basically, by how hard or soft you hit the, the keys. But, um, organ playing is very much, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's all based on, on, on, on sound, on sound. But the technique has to be created on the piano, that's very important.

No, no, no, no.

Flat fingers, yeah.

I think so, because it's all very pianistic. I mean, I play the organ as if I'm playing the piano, basically. I mean, I'm trying to create sounds in the fingers, and, uh, [Wayne plays a note] this is great. But, you know, it's—it's about the technique though, Michael, it's about the technique, and this is very, very important, this pianistic technique, whereby it's a kind of virtuose—virtuosity thing, and this is one thing that my teachers were always very keen on. And, uh, I was lucky to have a very fine piano teacher when I was at school in Manchester, and a very fine organ teacher when I went to London, to the Royal College of Music. And, uh, you know, combining these, these disciplines, for me, for me it was all about, you know, calming me, you know, keeping me calm and, and discipline, disciplining me in a way that I could perform, but in a way almost it's like an out-of-body experience, where I can go and watch myself performing. So, the energy is not sort of, you know, it's not, it's all about control, and you know, and this is what's so fascinating about, about the technical aspect of it.

Right.

Yeah, perfect.

That's it.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, let's, let's talk about the improvisation, um, part. I mean, fascinating. When I started to play, I mean I played by ear, I played by ear, for what, five or six years. So, you know, when I started to have formal piano lessons, I mean, the—the difficulty was to get me to, you know, to stop improvising and to start reading, learning to read and to count and to do all the things that I could do naturally, but I had to learn to do it, do you see what I mean? It's—it's a—it's a bit kind of the—the other way.

So, that was the hard part, and, but once I, once I figured that all out, all the theater—theoretical side of music, then it, it, then it, then it took on a—a diff—a different dimension. Um, the, as far as the, the, the, the other stylistic things is of concern, I mean, the thing is that I've always understood this, this, this thing about the idiom of, of music and the style and, it's a lot of it is i—imitating and, and, um, and, uh, yeah, you know, I mean I was always fascinated with classical music, and then in the, the early seventies, when I was at school, it was, it was the, you know, music of Stevie Wonder that, that, that had a big influence. So all of that jazz stuff then started to, to, to infiltrate my classical playing, you see?

I played in some, yes, I mean, I did play in some jazz, jazz, you know, jazz bands and some trios and things. But, for me, I, it was always about, it was always about, um, you know, being a, a classical, classical pianist, really, that—

Yeah.

That's it. Yeah.

I think it's just, um, you know, you know, I mean, as an organist, you know, I improvise all the time. And, I mean as a pianist, yes, I impro—improvise all the time. But it's just that I'm, I'm interested in, in, in, in this sound world of, of many different composers. I mean, I mean, I can, I can get into the style of the 1920s and improvise in that way, but, in a way, it's, in a way, it's nice to sort of bring a different dimension to the piece. Uh, whereas, I like to just get into my own sound world and to always be aware of the fact that, you know, beautiful, the orchestra has to join, uh, at figure 28 in Rhapsody in Blue and, you know, you have to sort of get there and, but it's, it still has to, has some kind of form and some kind of identity about it. So, but it's really about my own sound world, this is—this is the main thing.

Yeah.

Yes, I think so. I think so.

I think it happened when I was at Glyndebourne in '87. I was working with Simon Rattle, um, on Porgy and Bess. And, um, I was then the répétiteur.

So, you know, I had been, I learned the score for, you know, for the rehearsals. And I also performed in the opera, as the pianist, Jasmin Brown, at the very beginning, big piano solo. [Hums opening bars] Yeah, that's the one, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's it. So, this was really my first introduction into the world of opera. I had no idea, I mean, I mean I knew excerpts from Porgy and Bess, but I didn't know the piece. So, it was a great way of learning, I mean, you know, eight weeks of rehearsals and, uh, you know, and, um, you know, working with Simon, of course, and the chorus, and being in the opera theater and so on, it was fantastic. But, I mean, I had no, no, um, desire at that time to be a—to be a conductor. No chance. But, at the same time, there was a documentary which was being made about me by the, by Granada Television, Manchester-based television company, and Simon appeared on this program and, um, I remember him saying, they were talking about me and so on, and he said to me, he said to the presenter, he said, "You know," so, "I'll give you a bet that in 10 years, Wayne Marshall will be conducting, will be a conductor." [Shapiro laughs] And, when I saw that, when I saw the finished product, I said, "What the hell is he talking about? Me be a conductor? No chance." But he was right. Yeah, I, um, I started to conduct. And, um, Simon and I, we both have the same management. Because Simon introduced me to his management, which—which was then Askonas Holt, Harold Holt, it was the one then in, in London. And, um, my then manager then, uh, had this idea for me to conduct a, a youth orchestra in London, London Youth Orchestra, and the program was Borodin's Prince Igor Overture, Borodin, the Crusell Clarinet Concerto in F minor, and, uh, Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. Um, and at school, Chetham's School of Music in Manchester where I was a student, um, I played timpani. So, I knew the Borodin and the Tchaikovsky very well, so I played the timpani part. But the Crusell I didn't know at all, nor did I like the piece, [Shapiro laughs] but, you know. But the fact is that, you know, I'd never conducted before, so it was very interesting to see how I was trying to conduct works which I sort of knew by ear, but had no, absolutely zero technique at all, you know, really what was required to, you know, all I—all I knew, I wanted, I sort of knew in my head how I wanted it to go, but showing it was another, was another thing.

And, you know, with my lack of experience, of course, and the rehearsals went overtime, and, you know, a lot of, lot of very, very disgruntled parents and their children, "Oh, you know, what is this conductor going on, you know?" [Shapiro laughs] So, but this is it, this is all part of the learning, the learning curve, and, I mean, I, I never studied conducting formally, I've never studied conducting formally, so it's just been a question of just getting up and doing it.

Yeah. Great.

Yes.

That's it. It's very, very interesting. Yeah.

It is very interesting, yes. The score tells you what to do, so they see it, because they also have the score, they also have them—their—their line—their lines to play.

Well, I suppose it's, you know, understanding this, the, the, the, the, the score and the music and the style, and just try to, you know, to, to, to work with the orchestra in a way that makes it work. Um, I mean, that's, that's a fac—that's a fascinating thing with, you know, with, with, with the orchestra, they're all, they're all different. Organs are all different. But we have to somehow make what we have to make it sound good, and it's all about the sound at the end, isn't it?

Well, I was music director of the, um, uh, WDR, WDR— WDR radio orchestra in Cologne. That I know. And I know. Yeah. But I would, I mean, I would love it. I would love to have the opportunity again. Of course, you know, and it would be wonderful. Uh, but it's just that, uh, in this day and age, it's a very, very, you know, it's a very competitive thing, and, uh, but if someone comes knocking, I would gladly, you know, pick up the phone and say, you know, if they say they want me to be their music director, I would love it.

There is, the one piece that I really want to do someday is Messiaen's Turangalîla. It's a piece which I have to do, somehow. Just got to do this piece, because this is a piece which I've known for many years and, uh, it's such an exciting piece of music, challenging for both orchestra and conductor, but the overall effect of it [clears throat] is something that is so, um, amazing and mind-blowing that, you know, you know, I just love to, just love to do it.

No, I don't want to play it. I'm just going to conduct it.

Sorry.

Oh, no, that, that's a very difficult piano part, that. That's a—a horrendously difficult piano part.

But, you know, of all the various recordings that I have of it, I mean, for me, the best recording of this piece is still the one that, that, um, uh, uh, uh, Michel Béroff—no, wait a minute, who was conducting it? No, who was conducting it now? Oh, yeah, sorry. Seiji Ozawa, with the Toronto Symphony.

With, yeah, that's, that's, uh, that, that, that recording sounds to me like a film score. It just is, I mean, it—it just totally transcends all difficulties of this piece. I mean, it just sounds so, ugh, you know. I was thinking of Michel Béroff because he recorded, um, the Des canyons aux étoiles..., which is just a fantastic performance. Oh!

Yes, yes. Like as if he's actually improvising it, all the pieces himself, you know, it's fantastic.

Oh, really? Yes.

Oh! Great, yeah. Splendid.

Not really. I mean, if I had to conduct one of the Mahlers, I'd love to conduct the Seventh, the Seventh. For me, that's—that's my favorite of all of Mahler's symphonies.

Lay it on.

The trouble, yeah. That finale. No, it's—it's, I find it just an amazing piece. It's just all the different, all the different moods that he goes through, this funereal first movement and then this—this wonderful, this, uh, second movement, the scherzo, and this fina—this finale, and, of course, and then the slow movement as well, but I don't know, there's something about it that's, I mean, it—it's, it's in which key? It's in B minor, right?

You know. Well, that brings us to the point, yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, it's quite—it's quite an ex—experience that we must, uh, all hear. I want you to do Mahler 7 and Turangalîla on the same program. [Shapiro laughs] Oh, that's it, wouldn't it? Can you imagine? Oh, I love that. That, that would be something. At the Albert—at the Albert Hall and the Carnegie Hall, okay, let's do it.

Let's do it. I think that would be something else. Like, you know, we'd die happy, I think, then, you know.

Well, thank you, Michael, for the invitation, and, uh, it's been fun. I mean, I feel that we could go on talking for a few hours yet, actually.

Thanks so much. Thank you.