Neal Gittleman

Yeah, I'm right right at the end of my 29th year as conductor of the DPO.

Um, yes and no. Um, I I, you know, it sounds immodest to say, but we play a lot better than we played back in 1995. Um, it was um, it's a a long-standing orchestra, started I think in 1933. Uh, had the founding music director for, I think it was either 42 or 43 years. His name was Paul Katz. Um, then Charles Wendelken-Wilson took over, who for many years was um, was uh Beverly Sills's favorite conductor. Uh, conduct conducted a lot it's uh with her at City Opera. Uh, Charles was here for about 10 years. Um, and then um, my predecessor was— and this is terrible. Why am I why am I spacing out his name? Um,

Yes, it does. It's called old age. Um,

And uh, [Laughs] Isaiah Jackson.

I got I got I got it through his son, Ben. Wait, his son was Ben Jackson, so he was Isaiah Jackson. Isaiah was here for somewhere between 8 and 10 years, and then in 1995 after uh a couple of years of searching, um I took over. So, I'm only the fourth conductor of the orchestra. I'll be retiring in a year and some change. Uh, and in fact, uh, they'll be announcing who my successor is in a couple of weeks. And no, I won't tell you, because I'm sworn to secrecy.

You're talking quality of playing or quality of the podium?

Podium. Um, you know, it's— it's hard to say. I think in almost any field, it's tempting to look back and say it was so much better way back then. You know, basketball fans are saying, "Ah, come on. Forget these guys. What about Jordan? What about Wilt? What about Shaq?" Um, so I— I think there's— there's probably a little— a little bit of that. Um, and, you know, uh, when I go to concerts, I, you know, I'm still an active, working conductor, so I don't see that many conductors, myself, because, fortunately, I'm busy a lot of the time. Um, when I go to concerts, I see conductors whose work I like. I see conductors whose work, it's like, you know, they— they, as we— as we say sometimes, they still are in their paper bag, because they haven't conducted their way out of it. Um, the thing that strikes me I think the most is just how good orchestras have gotten over the years. I mean, as good as the orchestras were back in the day, um, the, you know, the average, especially in this country, the average American orchestra is way better than the average American orchestra was 30, 40, 50 years ago, regardless of— of who's on the podium. Um, they're quicker, they have generally more flexibility, they can, you know, with the right— with the right approach and the right person on the podium, they can sound however you need them to sound. They can sound like a French orchestra, they can sound like a Czech orchestra if they're playing Czech music, they can sound like a modern-day American orchestra. Um, and so, you know, I would say if— if any person goes to a concert and is somehow dissatisfied with what they hear, chances are it's the fault of the person on the podium and not the fault of the players.

You've got Trout, you've got Trout, you've got Ohtani, you've got—

Right.

Sure.

That's a good question. And um, since I did my— my college work at Yale, where you were always taught to uh, to answer the question by critiquing the question, um, your— your question presumes that we are filling the seats. And like most orchestras, even four years after the pandemic shutdown, we are not yet fut— filling the seats, we're not yet even back to filling the houses the way we did in early February 2020. Um, we're in the process of sort of discovering what the new normal is. Um, the good news, at least from Dayton, and I think it's maybe slightly ahead of the curve with other orchestras, is that the audience for our classical concerts, what we call the Masterworks Series now, is basically back to where it was in the pre-pandemic levels. Uh, everything else that we do, whether it's opera or— because we are— the Philharmonic is, for the last 12 years, is part of what we call the Dayton Performing Arts Alliance.

All three, all three. Dayton Opera, Dayton Ballet and the Dayton Philharmonic are merged, kind of. We— we have the European model without the European funding, if you know what I mean.

Uh, but also without the European backstabbing. So, that's— that's a— that's a good thing. Um, so, the— the only thing that's pretty much back to where it was in terms of the— the pre-pandemic shutdown levels is the classical series. Um, everything else is still working its way back. Um,

So, I would say over the years, and this goes back even before the pandemic, I would say our programming was more— a little more adventurous in the first 15 years of my, so far, 29 years. Um, and over the last, over the second half of my tenure, I've consciously tried to be a little more safe in the programming, uh, playing more standards, but that doesn't mean that we're not playing unusual things.

Yeah, sort of mixed it in.

But, you know, it's funny, because you asked before, you know, of comparing the orchestra now to the orchestra 30 years ago. I guess the— the easiest way to say the changes that this ensemble has undergone over the years is that back in what— it would have been November, I think, of 2020,

—the Dayton Philharmonic did Turangalîla by Messiaen.

This orchestra couldn't have even played the first page of Turangalîla back in 1995. So, it's— it's come a long way. Um,

I love it, and I think it's essential. I think one of the sad things, certainly in our case as a, you know, a— a small city, limited resources, tight budgets: when we were shut down by the pandemic, we sort of went into "do everything we can try" mode. So, within weeks, we had made an arrangement with our local classical music station, which is a fabulous, fabulous station, 24 hours a day, locally controlled classical music. Um, we got a 2-hour time slot once a week to re-broadcast concerts from the archives um, and have been doing it ever since. Every— every week, there's a concert from— from the past that people can hear. Um, that was sort of the— the very first step we did. And then very quickly, we put up, certainly for our size, a pretty robust streaming program. First, with some taking archival audio—we had no archival video to speak of, but taking archival audio that we had and I basically created music videos to go along with it. Um, and then as soon as we could, we started doing uh first concerts that were just filmed by our local public television station people, you know, one-hour— basically, 1-hour concerts with, you know, string players wearing masks and and win— wind and brass players in little plastic cubby holes um that we put out for streaming. And then we went to hybrid performances with small audiences. So, we were really active in that and had a pretty vigorous um streaming presence. Now, as soon as we were able to get back to some kind of semblance of normal um concert-going, and also as soon as the— the various um contractual things that allowed us to pivot to the streaming platform, um as soon as we sort of went back to the old system, um there was really no way to continue doing the streaming. Uh, you know, uh, organizations like the Cleveland Orchestra are still doing it, I think Detroit is still doing it, uh certainly the— the Met is still doing it and the Berlin Philharmonic is still doing it, but most orchestras that had gone into the streaming thing during the pandemic have now retracted from it, just because it's— we can't figure out a way to— to make it work. I wish we could, because I think it's critical. You take— you take a— a city like Dayton, um, we have a lot of classical music lovers uh here, people who love the orchestra and who love the ballet and who love the opera. Um, some of them, and some of them— shall we say, the ones who have the deepest pockets to support us— spend the winter in Florida or Hilton Head or Scottsdale or something like that.

And would love the idea of turning on their TVs on a Saturday night and watching a concert from Dayton while they're sitting on their patio in Phoenix.

Uh, and— and unfortunately, we can't do that right now, just because we don't have— we have the technical means, if, you know—it— it might not be as slick as— as the Berlin Philharmonic, but we could create that stuff if we had the— the resource— the financial resources to make it work. So, um, you know, I— one of the— one of the things we learned during the pandemic is what's possible in terms of alternate ways of getting our performances out to the audience.

Yeah, the name, certainly.

Right.

And I just— I just got the— I just got the score to that piece like four days ago.

Um,

So, you know, it's— it's always— it's really what it's always been from the beginning for me here: trying to find a good balance between the things that people know and love, and the things that people don't know, but might love if they had a chance to hear it. Um, so a lot of it is— is almost random in terms of the composers who come across my radar, so to speak, or the pieces that I hear about. I mean, Mike Shelly— I got to know Mike Shelly um years ago when I took over—I think it was probably about 1985 or so—when I took over a little community orchestra in Marion, Indiana. Uh, and I did what I thought was the obvious thing for a new conductor with a new orchestra in a new-to-them state: I reached out to the Indiana Arts Commission, and I said, "Can you give me the name—the names and addresses," because this was before email, "the names and addresses of composers in Indiana, because I want to reach out to them and see their music." So I got a bunch of, you know, 12 to 15 names. I wrote 12 or 15 letters. I got two responses.

Two. It's like, I think, what's wrong with these people? Now, it's possible that their database was crappy, and they were— they were bad addresses. Um, but uh, there was one named Richard Wienhorst, and the other was Mike Shelly. And we played— I liked pieces from, you know, that they showed me, and we played pieces by bo— by both of them. And with Mike, it turned out into this, you know, 35— almost four— well, 40 years later, I'm still playing Mike's pieces.

Um, so, but you know, and that— so that's, you know, so it's just curiosity on my part is part of it. And some of it is just, you know, the— the accidental discovery of a piece or a composer.

Mhm.

No, it's pr— it's pretty much done by the— by the artistic director. Uh, they— they choose the repertoire. I mean, we— we talk about ideas, uh, and pieces that we'd like to do. Um, but ultimately, you know, the ballet world is the ballet world, and the— the choreographer is the— is the king. And— and my job is to be there, their music advisor, in effect.

What's that?

Really?

So, you know, it's funny because um, when I came to Dayton—I mean, one of the— one of the big catalysts for the improvement of everything in the orchestra and in the arts in general in— in Dayton is that I— I came— I came here in 1995. And in 2003, um, we opened a new performing arts center, uh, which is absolutely fabulous.

And it's— it's— it's g— it's a Goldilocks hall. It's great for orchestra, it's great for ballet, it's great for opera and it's great for Broadway. It's incredibly flexible and can change its acoustical profile. It's a— it's a world-class hall in a small town in southwest Ohio. Um, so, the old hall had pretty much no resonance to speak of.

So, um, it wasn't me, but we had a guest conductor early on in my tenure who did Bruckner Four. And I heard the concert, and the orchestra played really well, and it didn't sound like Bruckner, [Laughs] because, you know, Bruckner was an organist, and he played organs in empty churches and he liked that resonance, and it didn't have it. So I said, "Well, we ain't playing any more Bruckner till we get a— a better hall." Uh, and I had— I had to say the same thing about music that I dearly loved like Debussy and Ravel, too, because the hall didn't work for that. When we— when we moved into the Schuster Center, we could play Bruckner again, and it was a wonderful space to play Bruckner. Uh, we haven't played a Bruckner symphony in a bunch of years, just because there's so many things to choose from, and—

—you can never— not enough concerts. It's like too— too many books, too little time. Too many pieces, too few concerts.

Hm. I don't— I really don't think so. I mean, there are certainly pieces like that just don't ring my chimes.

Uh, a— example is Prokofiev Five. I know orchestras love to play Prokofiev Five, and we've— we've programmed it several times since I've been here, always with guest conductors. Because I know it's just— it's— just doesn't— but you know, but I— I lo— we're doing Cinderella ballet next year, and I am pumped about doing Cinderella. We've done Romeo and Juliet. I love the Romeo and Juliet music. But there's something about the symphon—and I love the piano concertos. Something about the— and the violin concertos. Something about the— the symphonies and particularly No. 5 just sort of leaves me cold.

Sure.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, the— the funny thing about— well, I mean, I'm sure every musician has this experience in their own way. Uh, I— I— I hope that we all have at least one really great teacher whose teaching informs almost everything you do, right, almost every minute of every day of your life, whether it's how you do music or how you move the shopping cart around the supermarket when you're— when you're buying groceries, uh, or, you know, or removing your hat when you enter a— a room. Um,

Or an ele— or an elevator, yeah. [Laughs] Well, by the time I'm in the elevator, I've already removed my hat when I came in the door of the building, so.

Um,

Um, and so, you know, for me, I mean, I— I was very lucky that I had Mademoiselle Boulanger and Mademoiselle Dieudonné at— at the same time, and then to a— to a s— a different, but similar respect, my— my main conducting teacher, Charles Bruck, at the— at the Monteux School, was the same sort of thing. Um, to have— to be lucky enough to have two mentors like that who not only— not only gave you a training that was reliable and with a technique that you could always fall back on if you— if you needed something to grab onto, um, but who also basically taught you how to teach yourself.

Which is— the gre— I think the greatest gift that any teacher could possibly give you.

Um, and, you know, f— forcing you to make the right decisions.

Yeah. And teacher.

And— and then there was Ozawa, who always had the score on his music stand and always had it closed.

Which is— but, you know.

He knew— he knew every note. He knew every note in—he conducted Turangalîla that way, and he knew it all. Um,

So, I I I th— I don't have that kind of memory. Um, I always— I always have a score, I use it. I'm not— I try not to be buried in it, uh, but it's just— I think everybody's mind works in a different way. Uh, and some people are blessed with that memory that they can, in effect, see it—

Yeah, Monteux is said to have used that— that line, too. I'm sure— I'm sure many— many have.

I think— I'm really encouraged by what we're starting to see in recent years, though it's hard to know if— if it's real or if it's just performative, but seeing— or let's say hearing, because we're hearing— hearing voices that we would not have heard before.

Of whether they're women composers or Black composers or Black women composers or Native American composers, that they're— they're working their way in to the system.

And— and people are having a chance, because, you know, one— one of the great things of— of being a student with Mademoiselle Boulanger was going to concerts that she was— well, we didn't use the word "curated" back then, but that's the word we would use now. And, you know, you would— you would hear things like you'd hear a— you'd hear a Bach organ prelude that would segue into the Stravinsky Mass, and then you would go into another piece, and it was— it was basically a mixtape of all kinds of styles. And she was sending— she was sending a message about the sort of eternal continuum of music.

And that it— and that it all fits together. As she would say, it's, you know, it's all the same music from Monte— Monteverdi to Ravel included. Um, and— but, you know, so to a certain extent, that has informed my approach to programming, and the notion that, you know, it's— [Laughs] it's like the food pyramid. You— you want your audience to have a balanced diet of— of music that they're listening to.

And— and sometimes that includes things that you know you really like, like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich at lunch.

Yeah, I do. I like— I like corned beef hash. Um, you know, or— or sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's Brussels sprouts, and you never knew you liked Brussels sprouts until you— you have them roasted the way my wife likes to make them. [Laughs] Um, you know, so, the— that idea of being able to expose an audience to a wide range of music, and to hear— to hear Mozart in the same context that you might hear another composer. Um, there's a program I've put together for next season, um, that I'm really looking forward to, and it's a very unusual, both in terms of the music and in terms of what it's doing, but it's— it's built around Joel Thompson's Seven Last Words of the Unarmed, if you know that piece. And it was like, okay, we need to play this piece in Dayton, Ohio. Not least of which because one of the people memorialized in it is from Beavercreek, Ohio, which is 20 minutes from where I'm sitting, and was killed in a Walmart. Um, and the idea is also, how do you put a program together with that as the central piece that allows the audience to have an emotional experience in the evening?

And so what I came up with, and there's many different things, but what we're doing, non-stop, Boulanger style, starting with Lili Boulanger's um Of a Spring Morning.

A happy piece. Then her Of a Sad Evening. A sad piece built on the same melodic material.

Then we do Joel Thompson's piece, and then we do the Fauré Requiem.

And then we stop and let people go home if they want, and anyone who doesn't want to go home stays and we have a conversation about what we just experienced. And that's the evening.

Yeah, well my musical grandfather was, in effect.

Well, thanks. It's fun— fun to talk about life and music and art and Michael Jordan and uh Ted Williams. [Laughs]